If you thought we were uptight about Janet...

I have to disagree Misnomer. It is wrong to send people to jail because they celebrate valentines day.

In our culture I would agree. But they are not the USA. They have different values.

Do you know that some of our mainstream magazines are considered porno in some countries? Is that wrong? For them, no it isnt.

Americans need to get off of their high horse and let other people decide what is right for them. We arent the culture police. We arent so great ourselves.

I don't know what to tell people from other countries who are seeing US culture imported into their countries. So many want weaker trade barriers, lower tarrifs, less trade restrictions, (promote "Free Trade" etc), but they never thought about the consequences of these things.

This can't go both ways, if you increase trade then the same thing is going to happen that ALWAYS happens historically--culture, ideas, and other intangibles will also be traded.

http://www.wto.org/

The "What is the WTO?" link is a decent read about the topic, although...a bit biased in favor, obviously. I wish they had a "10 actual bad things the WTO causes to happen", but yeah, right. I'm sure someone could figure out 10 negatives. Perhaps this "culture mix" is one of them...of course, that website doesn't mention anything like this AFAIK.

I have great respect for culture. Culture is for the country that practices it to decide though. In prisons everyone is FORCED to wear the same cloths/shoes. They have a guidline for behavior that they are FORCED to abide by. Is that a culture? Maybe i'm being narrow minded in thinking like this, but I am a product of a free society. Free for Everyone to be, look, act, dress or live in the way they choose. Our culture isn't perfect at all but the people have a right to change it as they wish. We can protest without fear of getting gunned down by the government. We can vote to choose who is the will lead our country. We can change the law.. Even our constitution is ammended constantly to conform to our current times. This is both good and bad, but we lead our own lives. We have a choice.

I respect that. I assumed that these Indians that were choosing to celebrate Valentines day DID make a choice. Perhaps you meant let the governing powers decide for them and enforce that with Jail time & head shaving?

Sorry MJ, but I think it's very easy to say this is wrong:



>>LUCKNOW, India - Hindu nationalists who claim they are fighting against Western cultural influence have threatened to shave young lovers' heads and beat them if they exchange Valentine's Day cards and gifts<<

Both different and WRONG

>>"The faces of those not heeding our request will be blackened and their heads will be shaved," Ved Prakash Sachchan, of the militant Hindu organization Bajrang Dal, said Thursday <<

Both different and WRONG

>> ( India — a predominantly Hindu nation whose constitution guarantee freedom of religion. )
Followed by "We will not allow any foreign festival which is a violation of Indian culture." <<

Both different and WRONG

>>another Hindu hard-line group, the Shiv Sena, which is a part of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, waved bamboo sticks at a rally in Lucknow threatening to beat people who observe Valentine's Day. <<

Both different and WRONG

>>In the past, Hindu nationalists have accosted young couples and vandalized shops selling Valentine cards and gifts in Indian cities, while police have stood by taking no action. <<

There's just no way this can be ignored and fluffed off as just 'different customs'. This sort of nonsense is just flat out wrong, and I find that opinion very easy to come by. Being beaten by a mob with sticks, having my head shaved and my store looted with NO protection from the police is something this world can do without. There's no justification for this. It cannot be defended rationally.

We can be thankful that we don't have culture police, unlike they do in India. There will always be differences between cultures, but repression is repression no matter what kind of religious or nationalistic BS it hides behind.

Its against their culture and breaks their laws. If they want to push the envelope and suffer the consequences then so be it. Maybe they will create change. Maybe they wont.

The same argument could be used to justify ALOT of things...are you sure you want to go down that road?

We have here a conflict between, on the one hand, individuals freely choosing to learn about, and to some extent embrace, another country's culture; and on the other hand, a governmental authority deciding what cultural practices people are or are not allowed to follow, and punishing those who transgress ... whether it's a bureaucrat handing out a fine, or a brute squad handing out beatings and public humiliations.

I know which side I'm on. It's not a tough call at all.

Liberty isn't an American value; it's a human value.

I agree whole heartedly. Lets fight for that here at home. How many here are against gay marriage?

Let the hypocrisy begin.

I'm ALL for it! Human rights, dignity and equality.

hehe, good point MJ. I take back what I said about us not having a culture police. Check this out...

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/content/auto/epaper/editions/sunday/opinion_0442326e064c624b0099.html

Culture isn't etched in stone; it's emergent, from the beliefs and actions of the people, and it changes over time (even absent the influence of those eeeeeeeeeevil Americans). If Indian culture really is changing, adopting bits and pieces of other cultures, then it's the brute squads, not the young lovers, who are acting "against their culture".

And where do you get the idea that it breaks their laws? I don't see that in the article at all. It says one of the groups responsible is somehow connected to the Prime Minister, but the article also said that India's constitution guarantees freedom of religion. It sounds like the parties responsible are vigilantes.

(Not that it would be any more admirable if they did have an official mandate; thuggery is thuggery, whether it wears a badge or not.)

Thats the hot topic of the moment. Why you brought it up, I dont know. Would you have mentioned it years ago when it started or is it just mentioned now because its the latest political trend for this election year? Marriage has many aspects to it whether you choose to acknowledge that or not.
It is also a part of MANY cultures. What is being done here is they are fighting for what they want. I dont see people beating them down for it, but I do see gay men & women who were just married on the cover of the newspapers. No guns aimed at them. It is the life they chose for themselves, Its not an easy decision for alot of people, but they picked it knowing that many looked down on them for it. but they CHOSE it. you see the difference here? again. they CHOSE it.
If its what they want and it makes them happy then its great.
now flip that around. Lets say you were forced to marry someone of the same sex. How would that make you feel?
I am sure that is how they felt when culturally they were told they must marry someone of the opposite sex. They fought, They changed. A great victory if you ask me. How i feel about it means nothing.

WOW, this I believe was the excuse used for more murder, intolerance and just plain inhuman misery than just about any other, except maybe for things like religon.


This justifies every torture chamber, every murder done by any 'secret police' state, every miserable act done by every barbaric and cutthroat goverment ever.

Who cares about all those people killed by (enter the name of any atrocity) in the world, it was their laws and customs after all, we have no right to butt in or judge.

Not me. I take it, though, that you oppose gay marriage, or are at least okay with those who oppose it? After all, they're just defending their culture...

Let the hypocrisy begin, indeed.

But that changed the topic... so do you mean you've changed your mind about the Indian culture discussion? Perhaps I misunderstand, but there appears to be a contradiction here. Is it ok to "defend your culture" or not?

Edit: Jellin - yep

<<Yes, I'm a patriot. Don't take any offense, none was intended.>>

None was taken.

<<But as I indicated on that post, I was not targeting anyone directly.>>

but you did say 'all'.

Anyway, sorry Jellin!

Many people on this forum have stressed that they are living in a 'free' society. In fact there is no such thing as a free society on this planet. Apart from the obvious things, like the fact that we are not permitted to murder or steal or assault other people, there are more subtle restraints on our freedoms, like not being allowed to marry someone of the same sex, not being allowed outdoors without clothing, not being allowed to jaywalk and thousands of other restraints.

Rules and restraints are necessary for any society to run; the differences between cultures are the minor differences between those rules and restraints.

These claims about 'freedom' are without foundation. Different cultures have different freedoms, but none of us is free to do what we like.

No I think it is hypocritical of Americans who defend "religious culture" and their right to oppress a group of persons here at home to run out and try to "save" people from their culture.

Remember when you point a finger (you meaning people in general, not "you" you have four more pointing back at you. We Americans want to save or vilify others when it fits our needs.

Making a turn back to the whole Janet connection.. I see our patriarchal society has punished Janet yet Justin has not suffered. Was he not an equal party?

My ancestors left behind everything to come to America. A lot of families did. Cuban and Vietnamese refugees took to the open seas in the most rickety craft imaginable to get here. We take in more immigrants than every other country in the world combined.

People don't go to such extreme lengths because our jaywalking fines are lower.

There is a difference; enough of a difference that people are willing to risk their lives to experience it.

A straw man argument, piled on top of an insult. I'm not defending religious oppression of anyone, by anyone. Unlike you.

No Misnomer, I mean any living creature in the universe should get to express their feelings and celebrate valentines day. "Normal" western culture was really different 50 years ago.

You miss my point Liberty.

Jellin,

<< Who cares about all those people killed by (enter the name of any atrocity) in the world, it was their laws and customs after all, we have no right to butt in or judge.>>

I don't think this is a valid argument, because we are not talking here about something which is a defence of natural human rights, but a strictly local custom which has become a means of commercial exploitation.

But irrespective of that, I think that in general most atrocities in the world are not due to cultures but to the temporary rise of inhumane governments.

In the west we often find ourselves misunderstanding and judging customs that are different from our own. An interesting one is the arranged marriage. I have known many couples whose marriages were arranged, and almost without exception they have been very happy together. It might not work in the west, but it goes with the support offered by the extended family group, and seems to work rather better than our own system.

I can imagine a Sri Lankan looking at western customs of courtship and marriage, and thinking how barbaric and failure-prone our system is. Imagine marrying for love! Falling in love is a temporary condition in which the failings of the loved one become invisible, and in this state people commit their lives to each other! Love is blind - marrying for love is like a blind man walking off a cliff. From his point of view the arranged marriage would seem rational and normal.

Murder and atrocity is one thing, but a mistake I think we are inclined to make is to imagine that our customs are necessarily 'better' than those of other countries and to do our best to remedy this sad state of affairs.