If you thought we were uptight about Janet...

Jack,
Valentines, isnt a universal holiday. Love and marriage isnt the same world wide.

Selador,
thanks for making your points. This is how I feel however you stated it in a much less inflamatory way than I.

I think everyone in the US should have their butt kicked for this one. I -DO- believe is was an accident. So what is she wears a nipple shield? Since when are people required to remove piercings when they get dressed?

It was an accident and we should all just say Ooops, point and laugh goodnaturedly at this Murphys Law moment and move the hell on.

Moving back to your original argument that you're trying to get away from however ... do you actually believe that because India is a differrent country they should have the right to have civilian mobs roaming the streets beating the crap out of anyone who has a differnt opinion of the 'traditional way'?

Liberty,

<<There is a difference; enough of a difference that people are willing to risk their lives to experience it.>>

Yes, you have a lot of money and a lot of land and a glamorous lifestyle. But that doesn't mean that you or your culture are morally superior to anyone.

I'm not knocking America at all - I think it's a great country, and has many aspects that all of us could profitably emulate.

What I do find rather disturbing is the way that some Americans feel that their culture is a shining beacon for the rest of the world, and that we should all emulate it.

True, but if someone hears about valentines day and wants to celebrate with their girlfriend, they should get to do that. No matter what country, what planet, what galaxy.

hugs & kisses : good
beatings : bad

Our 'custom' of NOT going through the streets in stick weilding mobs and beating people who we don't like while the police look on blandly, IS better than what that article talked about.

Go on, go back and read that article again and Please defend it point by point.

Your example of arrainged marriage, exactely how does that equate with mobs beating couples who give each other a bit of chocalate or a card?

Apart from the obvious things, like the fact that we are not permitted to ..

murder <If you forcefully entered my home i can legally grab my firearm and put a bullet in youre cranium>

steal <If you survive you can probably sue me for everything i have>
assault <If you survived it wouldnt qualify as murder>

other people, there are more subtle restraints on our freedoms, like ...

not being allowed to marry someone of the same sex,<seems to be happening quite legally here now, or so the newspapers indicate>

not being allowed outdoors without clothing <There are lots of places that this can be done. Its legal for you to walk through NY without a top (Women) If you so choose too. didnt a man just walk across UK naked? Sure, he got arrested many times. but he DID it.. and LIVED.>

not being allowed to jaywalk <This is a rule for safety, not culture, aside from the fact that it is done all the time here and the police in most major cities do not enforce it >

As i said, Free. Many of these things are things that we fought for. The second ammendment allows me to legally keep firearms, my state law allows me the right to carry them.

These are little things that i beleive you do NOT have right now. your government chose to ban personal firearms long ago and went house to house collecting them. I'm not knocking that, its what your population chose to vote into law. hehe again CHOSE.

Rules and restraints are necessary for any society to run; the differences between cultures are the minor differences between those rules and restraints.

These claims about 'freedom' are without foundation. < I have just given the clains foundation from MY CULTURES perspective>

Different cultures have different freedoms, but none of us is free to do what we like.. <We have the option to change that. If we didnt, we would still have Slaves.. Women wouldnt have a voice or equal rights.. and Gay men & women would not be able to wed. This list can go on & on.>

Now for the sake of laziness I will put in Misnomers disclaimer. (you meaning people in general, not "you"
YOU=ALL

My main point, that it took too long to get around to was this:

and

Which is why I brought up the gay marriage issue. For whoever it was that asked, Im not "onboard" this issue because its fashionable. I have always been for equal rights.

Yes the people in India face some issues they need to work out. No I don't think its ok. But frankly the same stuff happens here. Using gays as an example again (since I already did) lets talk Matthew Sheppard and all the other gay people who suffer hate crimes daily. The church thinks its ok because being gay is "wrong in the eyes of God". All I'm saying is make sure your own back yard is clean before complaining about the neighbors.

Yeah but the chruch is like a club. You don't like it you can find a new one. You can't really help what country you were born in.

This country was founded on religious FREEDOM, whatever religion you wish to practice here is allowed. If that religion is against the other is against the Americans hands. We have the seperation of church & state here, You wont see the pope running for president.

The Church does not condone violence against homosexuals, they are against homosexuality as a non-christian act. I dont beleive that the church is American though. You wont get beat down by Nuns on the street for being gay here.

We Americans are the ones whe were vilified here, not the
other way around. Our back yard isnt spotless but its alot cleaner than most.

not to mention its next to impossible to get out of some of them.

Whhaaa? Just stop showin' up!

OK... Confused ??

Seperation of church and state in this day is a lie. Freedom OF religion, sure. Freedom FROM religion.. not.

But then this is yet another tangent.

Jack,

<< True, but if someone hears about valentines day and wants to celebrate with their girlfriend, they should get to do that. No matter what country, what planet, what galaxy.>>

I don't have any problem with people defending their own culture. France, which sees itself as culturally weak next to Britain and America, some time ago tried to ban 'Franglais' - the use of English words in the French language. I don't think it worked, but I think it was a commendable effort to defend a weaker culture against a stronger one.

LOL OK, Jack I misunderstood you're reply becaus you misunderstood mine. I meant leaving Countries, not religions

oops. hehe Cornelius, ya that takes a lot of work.

Jellin,

<<Moving back to your original argument that you're trying to get away from however ... do you actually believe that because India is a differrent country they should have the right to have civilian mobs roaming the streets beating the crap out of anyone who has a differnt opinion of the 'traditional way'?>>

Was I trying to 'get away from' my original argument? What a weasly character I must be!

Actually, if you re-read my first posting in this thread, you will see that I said that I supported their aims, but not their methods.

I also supported the aims of the IRA, but certainly not their methods when they were bombing the hell out of us. There is a difference.

OK, lets talk, lets compare the difference here.

US: We have hate crimes, and people who revel in hate. We also have laws, both state and federal to protect those who face hate crimes and to punish those who commit them. Aside from a small minority who endorse this sort of perversion, most everyone else condemns it. Those who commit these acts are arrested, given a trial, and if found guilty got to prison.

India: (used as an example since we've been talking about it) They seem (from news reports) to have hate crimes, and people who seem to revel in hate. They also have police and government officials who take no action against those who commit these acts. They do not punish the vigilante mobs roaming the street taking the law into their own hands and beat the crap and otherwise humiliate those who ... bought a card with a haert on it.


Hmmmmmmmm


Let me consider. .....

Which of these two situations is better than the other? Hmm is it hypocracy to say the US has the better model of life here? No.

I'll pick the US model here as the one more inherently moral and just.

Selador, please keep the posts straight, I was talking to MJ there, not you.
Please stop misquoting me.

Um - That was her. (Sorry! Couldn't resist ! )

Jellin,

<< Our 'custom' of NOT going through the streets in stick weilding mobs and beating people who we don't like while the police look on blandly, IS better than what that article talked about.>>

I'm not going to go through American culture with a toothcomb pointing out all the dreadful things that happen. If I did that it would look like anti-Americanism, and I'm certainly not anti-American. But you *should* be aware of them anyway.

Just to mention one - you have a concentration camp in which people have been held for nearly eighteen months without legal representation or regard for the Geneva Convention. Quite honestly that strikes me as rather worse than hitting a few people with sticks.

It seems what will or won't happen tomorrow in India totally depends on what you read.

I guess their media suffers hype just like the US.

I am aware of them, thanks, and I agree about those guys, we should do whatever we're going to do with them and get it over with.

Worse tham beating a few people with sticks? No, not really, after all, what did they do to get there? Mmmmm blew up the WTC, that's right.

Please, don't make out like their were innocent picnicers out on a lovely Afghan saturday afternoon with the kids.

People people, please put a little more thought into the comparative examples. And while it's true that anyone, everyone, can always always always pull something out of a hat and say "Well what about THIS?" but mostly it's just apples and oranges.

A much better example would be to imagine a vigilante mob marching down the street lynching anyone who DARES to wear an Ozzy Osbourne t-shirt.

We don't do that! Twist it any way you like, pull out any example you want, but we don't do that.

They do in other places. Guess what? That's Wrong too.

Jellin,

<<Selador, please keep the posts straight, I was talking to MJ there, not you.
Please stop misquoting me.>>

Yes, you are quite right, the comment was directed at somebody else. My apologies. My only excuse is that it's very late (where I am) and I am very tired.

I am sorry if you were offended by my mistake. It won't happen again.

Pffft. Erased.

Forget it.. this can go on and on.
I surrender, i love you ALL. Anyone who I've upset. Sorry.

I get emotional. (Now looking for mobs.. None.. OK GOOD)

night everyone