Landowning and risk, stop whining!

Mole may be Mole, but it seems to me that he came here to create stuff and possibly make friendships.

I disagree.

Caveat Emptor. If it's not in writing, you don't have any claim to it.

And your misbegotten excuse to exist? I am sorta forced to consider you as a hemorrhoid in my SL existence barring any other substantial explanation or evidence.

Ya know what I think I am starting to finally see Korgs stance on some things....Ghod thats scary but oh so True.

I think I figured out why Korg is a Curmudgeon, because I find myself getting more and more cynical and intollerant ever day.

I listen to Bill Engvall and when he says "Stupid people should wear signs" I totaly agree with it considering recent events on the forums" No Hiro Im not calling you stupid" actually I agree with your observation that SL is merely a test platform at this time because as technology changes SL trys to adapt and how then can something that is ever evolving be considered a "Final Product".

However what confounds me is the context of SL being continually being refered to as a game.

I mean what level asshole am I today as opposed to 4hrs of play from yesterday?

How many of Schwansons sheep did I have to Kill to attain new asshole level?

Did my Ship blow up and the screen say game over press A if you would like to restart misssion?

If its a game um what did I play to get money cause making clothes sure as hell isnt a fun game to be making money at ...for me making them is just fun.

In respect to the TSO Mindset um what do I have to do every day repetitively to keep playing ((I mean I sure aint pixelating pissing.....))so what is it I have to do?.....LOG IN

Anyway I wasnt assaulting Korg or Hiro or anyone just noting that I am begining to understand korg to an extent and Hiro even with some of our differences in the past I tend to agree with your sentiment that its not a final product.

Ok y'all can start biting at me cause I got more ass than you got teeth less your a Shark with those flip fold and loose em teeth..LOL

Just thought Id put my two cents worth in.

Shadow

LOL!!

I can't believe that Korg actually said this. The King-o-Condescension himself...

Korg..you are losing it. Might think about taking a long vacation.

Uh... in case you don't recognize it.. one of the most common rhetorical strategies is to use the opponent's style and argument against himself.... you just tried to do it yourself. Not very successfully as all you wound up doing was using sarcasm.

Then again, I am glad you are amused... and a vacation from your presence here in the forums might be just what you need to (re)gain some sense of intellect.

I for one am starting to get pissed off that small things aren't being done, while the Teen grid is worked on and various other things are not being worked on that have been requested for almost a year now. And I do invest heavily in land in SL like several other people.

Shadow,

I see Korg's points, too, it's just that he chooses to make them amid a slew of personal attacks. What Korg fails to see is that, as you point out, it took a while for you to understand what Korg is saying. On the rare occaision I witness Korg post without his usual ad hominem attacks, he shows he has the ability to express himself without having to put down others. It's also possible to speak about Korg's attacks as wrong without putting Korg down as a person.

As for the whole game / not a game debate, yeah, that's the ongoing question, I suppose. It's more aptly described as a platform, in general. Though, SL is very different to different people, that to some it is a game, others a part-time job, others a chat room, others an artistic outlet.

Perhaps LL's marketing department could be more clear on that? In the current website, for instance, LL describes what you can do in SL, but never quite puts its finger on what SL is.

Gee... I love being talked about in front of my face, or was that behind my back? One can never be sure on the Internet.

You seem much better off than I am hero, as I can't find a single thread of logic in most of your things and long ago nearly gave up trying to do so. Dress it up in subtle verbiage all you want - your disdain is evident even to a program that only analyzes your words as the programmer who doesn't know you set it up to do.

On the rare occasions I think you might actually have said something of interest I make the mistake of rereading it and proving myself to have been overly generous --- I find that your garbage remains evident, as illustrated in the self-congratulatory and self-aggrandizing post above.

Unlike me, it seems you cannot express yourself without having to put others down. I can. In your case, I am not sure I even want to.

Bwahahahahahahaaha!

Korg, I'm gonna say this one last time:

If you don't like what I say, don't read my posts.

There's an ignore feature for a reason.

I may have disdain for you, but I have always addressed your comments when they are focused on what I say, not me personally in an ad hominem attack. I realize I may slip and take a direct shot at you, but I do my best to resist the temptation to put you down.

Call that "subtle verbiage", but words are all we have on these forums.

Korg, in this world you are going to find that you meet people that you disagree with, and people that you don't like. The trick is to be able to express that like an adult. You've reiterated over and over how you, by simply paying your SL bills, are entitled to your opinions on the forums. Well, Korg, not only do I pay my bills, but I have created a number of items in game, worked on large projects, and have more projects coming down the line that will affect a large number of SL members. I'm certainly entitled to my opinions in the forum, just as you are.

If they are senseless and logicless, then whatever, no one will listen to me. If truly your assessment of me is accurate, then people will laugh me off. What then do you have to stress about? It seems almost every time I post, your panties get into a bunch. Seriously, Korg, breathe. It'll be okay.

barring any other substantial explanation or evidence, from the series of personal attacks presented today i am sorta forced to consider that korg has an anal fixation.

Uh... hero's idiotic post + Korg's name = guaranteed response

hero's arrogant advice to anyone >>> guaranteed derision

hero's prepubescent nattering on like a hero >>> sidesplitting laughter followed by derision

But..perhaps the best one...
hero's "I'm gonna say this one last time" >>> absolute and total disbelief that the poster is anything more than a poorly designed ELIZA

You haven't got a clue what a personal attack is. I speak to/about you in metaphor so that you have a chance to understand, because obviously speaking to you directly didn't work --- not to mention that our first exchange of barbs was NOT me "going neg". So take your own fixation and go home to flush.

Go Korgy! Do the self-deceptions and contridictions that spill forth from you ever give a moments pause?

Insecurities can be overcome. You have to take down the wall one brick at a time. Perhaps hugging a loved one, expressing joy, smelling the flowers, doing good deeds and respecting others might help. Remember, the world would be a dreary, boring place with out diversity and variety.

Second Life is full or variety. Many great, intelligent and creative folks, and a few bad apples as well. But the best part is, everyone is free to create what the want. To build what they want. To learn at thier own pace. To experiment.

While there are certainly groups of close-knit friends within SL, and many that share common viewpoints, there are many others that hold opposite or different outlooks, and have different friends.

I love that about Second Life. So many people to meet, talks to have, builds to see.

Good lord.

HEY! ASSES! STOP FEEDING THE TROLL (KORG)

In case you HAVEN'T realized, he's going to insult anyone that mentions his name, regardless of logic or rational thought.

The simple way to combat this is to add him to your ignore list, so you never have to listen to his trolling ever again.

This is like 5 threads now folks have demolished trying to "win over" Korg. It ain't gonna happen.

Give it a rest.

LF

Oh really?

Oh. We're supposed to be trying to win him over?? Ooopss..

Actually, while I agree we do feed him, I am very bored at work and have to do something. Maybe I should start some polls....

Hiro, my big game systems can not be completed in the current state of SL.

So I pay my money every month, for months and months, to simply check back in, run a few experiments, find the same bugs, and throw up my virtual hands in frustration. I have put weeks and weeks of time into coding these things, so I am not prepared to simply "vote with my feet" and abandon it. It is extremely frustrating when I see all this work sitting and rotting in world, and then hear people say, "well yeah but we should be amazed and grateful that you can even take it as far as you have".

Ghosting is still a serious problem, this has been going on since beta. We're talking over TWO YEARS. llListen still does not work with the rock solid consistency we need it to; sometimes, objects still don't "hear" when they should. My droids in the Vorago STILL periodically lose their pathing data for no reason.

Bullets still tunnel. Physics are still a mess if you try to use them with anything involving collisions. XMLRPC is still incomplete. Crossing sim borders and porting is still plagued with issues.

And most of this has been going on since beta.

Now, we hear they are expanding the game aggressively to a teen audience by creating an entirely new grid, which will share all of these problems.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, since nobody seems to hear it; I admire the vision and the technical capability of the people making this thing happen...I have been paying for it since you could pay for it, and beyond. But I am counfounded by way they allow major breaks in the product to persist (now) year after year. The product is advertised as a platform for game development, but the reality is, I have yet to see ONE large game system work in an unsupervised fashion for any length of time.

Draw the line in the sand and put out SL 2.0 plz. End this so that when I shout at something to vanish, it vanishes. Why is this considered unreasonable? Why do people accept this blindly, without consideration for the time and effort of the paying customer who is now stonewalled in their efforts, praying that one day, a bug they have been reporting for two years gets fixed?

Or, in fact, do they need to scale back the expectations of the product? Maybe it just can't do everything they originally thought it could. Maybe the Internet is not a viable medium for it, at least not yet. This is my emerging opinion anyway.

I understand your frustration. Back in the game dev competition, 3-D Tanks never reached its full potential because a great deal of a month's time was putting workarounds in the listen and collision system. I described the collision bug to LL, had Lindens watch the game as bullets would collide and literally not trigger LSL events. I gave the bug team copies of my bullet-time gun that showed bullets bouncing off buildings. I pieced the game apart and proved that, "Hey, something is definitely not working with object-object collisions here.

In 1.5.something Cory announced that an object-object collision bug (where essentially most object-object collisions weren't being triggered in LSL) was fixed. The irony is that, in his post in this forum about it, the bug was "found" because he was looking at a code that would "aggressively shut down scripts that it thought was dead". The bug wasn't even fixed because of my efforts - instead, a totally incidental issue.

So, yeah, frustration, Tcoz.

Granted, that was an advantageous project. I had 2 games that could run 8 players simultaneously that relied on layers of listens, physics, and simulated semaphores in the game controller units. Though, now that I think of it, I suppose I could buy myself a quarter sim and get it up and running. Ideas, ideas. I fear doing this, Tcoz, because of precisely the frustrations I hear from you, and as I've indicated, I'm not willing to spend the $$$ for a venture with so much risk.

There has been a lot of talk about "Oh, LL has misrepresented SL in its marketing." A lot of it, honestly, has been whining, as my thread title indicates. However, Tcoz, I believe you have a 100% legitimate point from where you stand. The SL website specifically has a whole section for "game developers" and it makes a point to promote it as a viable platform. While other claims of, "Wah! I can't do XYZ and LL promised it!" have been sort of baseless because LL promised nothing of the sort, game developers in SL have sort of been left holding a broken bat when swinging at the pitches.

So I agree with you in this regard. IM me in the game sometime, and perhaps we can discuss this further; I don't think the forum is an appropriate place.


I don't think this is so unreasonable. Unlike many comments which fail to produce some constructive suggestions, yours is among those that is viable. I sort of take it as a given that SL, at some point, will need to be 2.0'd. I guess that "some point" in my mind has been a year or two off. Perhaps you're correct, and this could be considered for a much sooner date.


Considering you've framed these comments in the context of game development, perhaps you are correct in saying essentially that LL could come clean that games in SL aren't a realistic expectation at this point.

Linden Lab -

You folks have a terribly good product, but for us folks who've tried to pull of games any more complicated than solitaire, there's been hardships and we fall short. I remember the game dev competition - most of the games fell short in what they were intended. Most were one player. The ones that attempted to be multiplayer faced great difficulties and limited success. Second Life is supposed to be a multiplayer platform - that's its bread and butter. The winner was, quite simply, the most reliable. It was also 1-player games, which by nature have very limited rules, and basically recreations of 2-D games that had already been made. (Not to demean the beautiful architectural design, or the talented scripting - they truly did a nice job with solitaire games.)

We want you to succeed. We love what you have so far. We want SL -> Metaverse. We want to make games.

"There has been a lot of talk about "Oh, LL has misrepresented SL in its marketing." A lot of it, honestly, has been whining, as my thread title indicates."

Please Hiro, stop insulting the other 90% of the population of SL with these types of comments.

People are not whining as other posts have shown. People are finally speaking up and stating the simple facts that these "problems" (god forbid that I use the word bug) are finally getting to them.

Getting to them after they find out that the creation that took them 3 days of hard work has been copied by another individual with the permission bug and is now being sold -- negating their copyright -- and with no help available from LL.

Getting to them after creating a vehicle, balloon, airship, gun -- only to find that another update has stopped their best selling and most beloved item from WORKING.

Getting to them because there is no fool-proof backup and/or realibility and or TRUST that any of their creations will be saved.

Getting to them because of insensitive comments like your's above. Respect the people that also create in SL on a different creative plateau than your own.

While reading thru all of this, I can welll understand the frustrations that people have had to deal with. People who create scripted items only to have them not work due to program updates, sim owners who spend much money fully immersing themselves in the SL world...only to be plagued by crashes and login delays. A lot of people are expecting a lot from SL, and it isn't being delivered.

That said, I agree with Hiro that perhaps we need to lower our expectations.

The point to the money that we are paying is to support the servers and the salaries of the company that runs this service. I *highly* doubt that LL is making a profit off of SL yet. Our funds are directly proportionate to the amount of stress our actions bring to the servers. You just want to explore, buy oodles of clothes, dance up a storm, and socialize? $10 till you die. You actually want to use *permanent* primage for a house rezzed 24/7, or a club with flashy lights and dance tunes to get dwell, or a SimHorror/Neverland interactive realm? You gotta help on the upkeep of the company, baby.

Yes, crashes are happening regularly, logins are at a snails pace, and the world isn't a quarter of what we imagine its potential to be. But that's maybe what we're paying for. Maybe what SL is right isn't worth the money we put into it. It's my opinion that if we pull our support now, it will never develop into the SL we want. So, I put into LL what I can afford, play in my pretty little snow cabin, and enjoy what I can in the laggy, unpredictable, bug-ridden e-world. Cause regardless, SL is better than any other e-world I've been to...and hopefully it'll become what the visionaries dream of. It's an awful kule dream.

Lynn, we don't see eye to eye, that's clear enough. I'll try and just respond to your comments plainly.

I think it's a big assumption that it's "90%" of people who feel as you do, Lynn. In fact, it seems a great deal of people have voiced their support of LL through this and agreed that the complaining has been a little excessive.

Speaking up and stating that problems are getting to you is fine. Doing so and having unrealistic expectations is whining.
I doubt this is the whole side of the story. In the instances I personally have dealt with copyright, and friends of mine have dealt with it, the perpetrator was warned / suspended and in a couple cases publicly outed. Problem solved.

So? Deal. Welcome to the real world. LL has to deal with an entire community, and with each patch, of course some stuff is bound to break. The fact that the overwhelming majority does not is, in my assessment as a scripter, frigging amazing.

I realize, of course, you're just giving examples of problems. Yes, people have the right to complain. My point is that not only are people complaining, but they are claiming that there are these big, implicit promises that Linden Lab made. The truth is that SL's TOS clearly state that the software is subject to changes with or without notice, and moreover anyone who's heard about "the dot com bust" knows that internet retail is risky business and should not be taken lightly.

Every computer scientist and computer engineer learns that there is no silver bullet, no fool-proof plan. The more ingenious of a solution of backup you have, the more ingenious of ways things can break evolve.

'Course, you probably are using hyperbole - you're looking for a better way to backup data, not really a perfect one. Yeah, I agree. At the least, we should have an encrypted backup available for our personal storage. And yes, I'll reiterate that eventually SL will be open source and we'll have our builds work like any Internet build. I imagine local inventory servers could do inventory backup like PDAs syncing to hard disks.


Different creative plateau? Um... ?
Insensitive? Whatever. When people complain that they aren't being given something that they were never promised, it's whining. When people place all the blame on Linden Lab for their problems, and take no responsibility for the high risk that is inherent on the Internet, it's whining. There's no reason to whine and complain that LL is being irresponsible - it's not professional or effective.

And another thing - if you read between the lines of what I'm saying, I'm endorsing people to consider tiering down and spending less money on Second Life. If you really want to have Linden Lab change its priorities, stop complaining, and hit them in their pockets! If all the private sim owners that were complaining all tiered down, or - imagine this - got together and threatened to tier down, then someone at Linden Lab would say, "Hmm, our cash inflow is down drastically. We need to do something about this ASAP!"

But regardless. It's still just a hobby or a game. If you are unsatisfied with how much you spend, spend less.

Dear Hiro,

You will find that your reasoning of 90% of the people who don't feel the way I do is simply because they are hoarse from the prevous cheerleading of problems that remain unsolved. You will find that many of the talented scriptors, builders, and other craftspeople HAVE tiered down and HAVE stopped creating.

Stop being so blind as to think that they haven't.

I will sit back and patiently wait until one of your beloved creations breaks; one of your hard-worked scripts fail to work; and then I will read with interest what your feelings are about the software and your time spent in-world.

It will happen to you; and with your lack of empathy and/or understanding to many of the existing creators to which this has occurred, I doubt very much if anyone will even care about your thoughts or feelings at that time.

Embrace those who are affected; do not mock nor berate them for having lost something that they wanted the most -- creative freedom.

You say "deal with the situation" -- most have been dealing with undocumented script changes for over two years. Most have been dealing with building bugs for over two years. And we now have been dealing with login and asshat server problems for almost six months.

While you say stop whining and tier down -- that's exactly what many are and/or have done -- but they've done it to another extreme -- they've STOPPED the creative process.

So you, dear Hiro, can be the ultimate creator, the ultimate say-so, and the only one left standing.

If the socialites leave because they can't log in -- there goes the clubs and the sales.
If the creators stop creating because of permission bugs -- there goes any individualized creations and sales.
If the scripting continues to break with every update -- there goes the cars, the planes, and oh yeah, the games.

So before you tell people that they are whining and to tier down it's no big deal, look around you, talk to some of the individuals affected. Have some empathy for someone who spent three days on a creation only to find that it's been copied and being resold.

Honestly, walk a mile in their shoes, Hiro.

I can't wait until it happens to you, then we shall hear a whine or two, shall we not? Then we shall simply tell you to... "Chill out, tier back and it will all be over soon."

And it will happen to you. You can count on that.

If I create an item from scratch, if I create the texture, if I create the script -- then it's MY creation. LL also advises that the end-users own their creations. So yes, I have every right to ask that I retain that ownership -- because if supplied backups don't work, then I want that right to backup my own creation. Again, wait until something of importance is lost from your own inventory before you speak about how or why others feel the way that they do.

Callousness will get you no where in my book and in the books of others.

Again Hiro -- in order for SL to succeed, it has to be a combination of LL, scriptors, builders, socializers, texture-makers, etc.

You have to have faith and empathy for your SL family.

You have to be able to understand their frustrations.

Because if you don't, you will soon find yourself in a desert all alone, and no one will be left to even give you their shoes to wear.

So wear those shoes of your fellow SL'ians for awhile instead of condemning them for having feelings. Feelings of simple frustration, feelings of violation, feelings of lost trust.

Put on those shoes, Hiro. Go speak to someone who has had a creation stolen, lost an entire build, go talk to someone who has lost 20-hours scripting time.

They are not whining.

Wear those shoes, Hiro; and become less callous.

Lynn... wasn't it the hero here who came running to the forum a few months ago WHINING and CRYING about how his poor little swordie was copied, omg, copied by someone else?

Yeah, it was. But he still acts as head cheerleader, SL's wannabehero and "forum celebrity" suckup?

Schmuck.