War and Christianity

Still, dosent take away from the fact that it was a deliberate attempt to scoff at Billy's strong faith and belief in his religion.

If you choose to see it that way and be offended, suit yourself. I have to say that I find the knee-jerk persecution complex to be the most thoroughly annoying aspect of Christianity.

When all the forces of nature are at work,
Even the harshest storm can't last forever.

Im not talking about Christianity, im talking about religion in general. Religion is a very sensative subject to anyone who truley dedicates and devotes themselves to practicing it.

What Juro said is almost like me poking fun at someones ethnicity simply because they believe in different customs.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you to an extent. What bothers me is that religion enjoys a kind of protection from criticism through social pressure that other areas of thought do not enjoy. You won't find people making the same kind of claim about ridicule or derision of atheism. Or say for examply someone is really into Nietzsche. Would anyone raise an eyebrow if someone else compared his philisophy to a breakfast cereal? The person who really digs Nietzsche probably wouldn't be offended in the slightest. Why is religion treated differently? It shouldn't be. The taboo when it comes to religion is a kind of contrivance enforced by social pressure to stifle dissenting points of view. It's especially ironic in a thread where a believer in one religion is denegrating a different religion.

Not at all.. it was, as I've said before a tongue-in-cheek comment. No malice intended and certainly no devaluation of his beliefs regardless of how silly *I* think they are.

Let me try to clear this comment to Billy, so that y'all can put away your pitchforks and look to a different witch to burn.


In citing my personal relationship with BooBerry as similar to Billy's with god, I in a humorous way tried to point out (with no success) that Billy's assumption that us godless heathons cannot understand his special relationship was false.

When I was a child, I had several relationships the likes Billy mentions. Santa Claus was first and then there was BooBerry. Before anyone gets in a tirade, let me explain:
I find the relationship children have with Santa Claus similar to the type of relationship Billy mentions. They both require a fair amount of faith since you cannot see, cannot have a two-way conversation, or cannot prove the existance of the individual.

It did not mean I don't think Billy is passionate or doubt the seriousness of his relationship with his god.

That's extremely different, Apex. A persons ethnicity and customs are tangible - you can see them, touch them, hear them, and taste them. There is no faith required for either of those, unlike religion. You must have faith, because what else is there to prove god exists?

Next they'll attack you for saying people who are religious have the minds of children because of that comparison...

Ha, burn you? I was just pointing out that in general Billy has a good reason to feel insulted by your BooBerry joke, as would I. As a matter of fact, im agnostic. BUT I also have plenty of aetheist friends who I respect and love. I just happen to get very annoyed and aggrivated when close minded steriotypical aetheist run around disregarding what other people believe in; thus, in turn, insulting them while hiding behind low-blow/lame jokes. The only quarrel I have with you is that your being too cocky and self-assertive to positively contribute to the "debate".



Notice, I said " is almost like". The point I was going for is that its discriminatory in both scenarios. As for proving that a higher power exist: what is there proving that a higher power dosent exist?

You can't disprove a negative.

And by that you mean...?

Asking people to *prove* that there is *not* a higher power isn't a very fair thing to do, since it can't be done.

You can prove something does exist, just by showing evidence pointing towards that fact. But you can't prove something doesn't exist just because there still *might* be something out there that shows it does.

It's like saying "prove to me you've never beaten your spouce." You can only prove that something has happened, not that something has not happened.

And arguing about semantics is all this thread has become... so i'm just keeping the flame alive

Heh.. who's to say what's fair and what's not?



Exactly.

Exactly what? We're right back where we started... there's nothing but faith to prove a god does exist... and there's nothing that can prove a god doesn't exist.

*"nothing" in this little paragraph deviating from the main point of the thread meaning "nothing that we know right now at this point in time." That should be inferred as a given, but with what i've seen in here so far, this disclaimer seems necessary.*

Wow, and I thought this post wasn't going anywhere...

...

Billy,

You have done a disservice. Your bitterness toward Islam is obvious through your thin veil of "revealing the truth". As others have pointed out by doing similar things with the Bible, you have put forth a bunch of quotes from the Koran out of context.

Now, the focus of this thread was does CHRIST'S TEACHINGS support the war in Iraq. You hijacked my thread, Billy, and made it an examination of Islam. To me, that is precisely the same mentality of the "Christian Right" and Bush. We are not focusing on improving ourselves, simply villifying other people.

It does not MATTER how evil the people are that we are fighting. Enemies will take all forms and we can't control how they will act, but the thing we have control over is our own actions. THIS is what I'm concerned with.

...

While there were a number of interesting exchanges about Christianity and Islam, I only saw a few things that really addressed the topic.



Excellent, Paolo. I agree wholeheartedly. The "Christian" churches in the US have by-and-large lost focus. The fact that some "Christian" leaders speak out for war when Christ is clearly a pacifist is a result. (Even if you go by Aquinas' rules as posted by Isis Becquerel)


Make the assumption that the gospels in the Bible do include what Jesus tought. Dealing strictly with what Jesus said in the Bible, he does give some very specific advice - things like:
- Serve your fellow man
- When attacked, show love
- Love your enemies as well as your friends

None seem to jive with the notion of the war in Iraq.


*applauds*
I've been saying this for a long time.



This is not the World War II when we were helping our allies, when we attacked the country that attacked us. This is a huge fucking mistake. Only by the talent and perserverence of our troops do we have any semblence of success at creating a silver lining - re-establishing Iraq as a free nation - and our troops are taking a heavy toll.

World War II is nothing like the Iraq War. It is fought different. It is totally different in the sides. It is not a global effort. It is fundamentally nothing like World War II. If you'd like to discuss this in another thread, I would be glad to deconstruct the two wars in terms of the struggle to escape modernity. But here is not the place.

...

My big epiphany

When we didn't find WMDs in Iraq, I did a lot of hard thinking about this issue. I finally came to what I believe is the central problem with the war in Iraq. I asked myself honestly, if indeed war was necessary, what is the most Christian way of doing it?

The answer was simple - Everything you do must be guided by love.

And then I thought back to a poem I wrote 3 days after I saw the World Trade Center fall from across the river in New Jersey.

"Third Sunset On New Manhatten"

Gunships patrol tight formation
Faint blue flashers of police boats
Twinkle on a stirring, upset harbor
Acrid purple cindering plumes a hundred stories tall
Ghost the skyling so hushed, so hurt
Pale orange and vermillions and mustard shades
Backdrop behind the proud city
Hot burning canvas to the nation's scar
This wound, hard and sharp, billows smoke -
Drywall, concrete, and burnt memos
Downtown a cauldron, simmering slowly
Builing futy of fatigue, of will struck soundly
This wound ten blocks wide
This wound tender and deep
The sun sets across Manhatten
Bright clouds above wisp eastward
Golds and scarlets, the souls of victims
Siren wails
An ungodly somber silence ensues
The night births an unearthly anger

----

Three days after this tragedy, our anger was apparent, and it has not died down.

This war in Iraq is guided by anger. It is being done completely wrong.

In reading previous posts throughout this topic, I have a hard time reconciling your "no hate in your heart" with your "Koran teaches no peace and love". If All Muslims are not evil, yet they follow their laws strictly...then by your own posts, are they not required to commit murder against Jews and Christians?

Also, if you truly believe "their strict adherence to their laws are to be admired", then aren't you admiring the adherence to the kill-the-infidel quotes you've given? That's a little like saying "Yeah, Hitler did some nasty things...but you have to admire his devotion."

Finally, I think you've made your viewpoint of how Islam views war pretty clear, Billy. Might I ask what you believe is the Christian viewpoint on war?

Been away from this thread a couple days, but I thought I'd post this for consideration. Many Christian theologians rely on the MAPS process to validate Christian texts, and to a degree, to prove the existence of God. In a nutshell:

M - Manuscript evidence (e.g., when comparing current translations to the earliest know manuscripts, very minimal differences occur -- usually in the form of grammatical mistakes).
A - Archaelogical evidence.
P - Prophetic validation (e.g., establishing that what was earlier predicted later came true).
S - Scientific (empirical) validation.

Just tossing this out there without much elaboration.

Yes, I agree with part of this. As stated before 80% of the Muslims are Sunnis and do not believe that the time for killing us has come yet. The scary part is that they all believe that day will come. The Koran is the direct word of God in their view and it is just a matter of timing.


Thanks for that Chip and I agree with you that the majority do not bother to study their religion. It is a shame too because if you are going to call yourself a Christian, Muslim or whatever religion, you had better know what the religion believes.

To point a finger at Christians for a second, I believe that this is a huge part of the problem. There are many people out there doing things in the name of Christianity that honestly do not know that their actions are against what Jesus teaches. The actions of a few make it very difficult for the rest of us when we are lumped in there with them and the perception is that we agree with what they are doing. A good example is the killing of doctors that perform abortions. Yes, we believe that abortions are wrong but in no way shape or form is killing, hurting or anything related ok. These people have been misguided and have lost their way and are using the name of God to commit horrible acts. This is an extreme example but there are many many that exist that are no where as severe.

On a personal note, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and appreciate your willingness to have a respectful dialog when debating issues. So many choose to go on attack mode and it really is a shame because whatever point they were trying to make becomes irrelevant. Constructive debate ceases when personal attacks begin.





I am not sure I see what the problem with this passage is. It is applicable in the secular world too btw.



Maybe it has been used that way, if so I totally agree that it is taken out of context. I do not see where this verse says to persecute Jews.

The Bible also says that the Jews are God’s chosen people and that they will be grafted back into the Church. Persecuting God’s “chosen” people sounds like a bad idea to me… lol.



The “shake the dust off your feet” simply means that sometimes we need to move on. Back in biblical times they all wore sandals and that region was extremely dusty. To shake the dust off of your feet was to leave everything behind, even the dust on your feet.

Judgment day happens after we die, not here on earth. I do not see this as saying submit or die at all.


I don’t get your question. It simply means to not surround yourself with wicked people. Pretty good advice if you ask me.


I totally agree and it is horrible. I submit that the Christians who have done this have a very limited and warped view of their God. These actions are not what Christianity stands for.

I will simply say that college textbooks are hardly a place to find any kind of objective religious doctrine. You admit yourself that basically you would not find a Christian or Muslim that would agree with you. That seems a much better barometer than some textbook written by an atheist.

That is correct. I will recycle what I already said since you missed it. The Koran is viewed as the direct word of God and as infallible.


I made it VERY clear that I would answer these questions to the best of my ability. I would have thought you would have appreciated the fact I made it clear I was not an expert… guess not.

Oh, and you must not be THAT well read up on Islam if you think they view the Koran as “fallible”.

Apex has made a very valid point. I totally disagree with you here Chip. Is there any doubt that if I had made a remark similar to Juro’s about someone’s non-Christian or for that matter liberal views I would have been attacked mercilessly. You cannot seriously say I would not have been.

You see Apex, it is perfectly fine to attack me and my beliefs, ridicule and make fun of something I believe so strongly in that it has made a difference in almost every aspect of my life. After all I am only a Christian and not “politically correct” and therefor fair game. You have hit the nail on the head. The fact that Juro could care less and has no remorse for what he has done and that his friends are quick to run by his side and take up for him shows how deep this problem runs.

Lastly, I am not denegrating Muslims at all, just recycling what they believe in for all to see. Please point out where something I said is not accurate.

Anyone read 1984? DOUBLETHINK! WAR IS PEACE! HATE IS LOVE! SLAVERY IS FREEDOM!

GEORGE W. BUSH IS WATCHING YOU. Repent now!

Amazing Billy. You sit there and flame me for being intolerant of your beliefs, yet you see nothing wrong with a passage that clearly promotes intolerance??!!

Everything is fair game with me Billy, politically correct or other.

So, have you read *any* of my follow up posts? Granted you missed the humor in my BooBerry comment, but I've tried multiple times to elaborate and explain what I was trying to convey: your dismissal that those of us who do not have a relationship with god cannot understand is false. You assume that because I don't believe in your god, I cannot understand the faith that is required to engage in such a relationship. That is wrong.

Let me try to explain this to you *again*, so you can get over what I have 'done' to you.

As a child, there were certain things I believed in, including.... you ready Billy.. god. *Gasp* I also believed in Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, BooBerry and those damn flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz. I knew they were real and existed even if I couldn't prove it, because I believed in them. I had faith.

As I grew older, I realized the monkeys fake, the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny and Santa Claus were my parents, and that left one standing: god. As I studied (yes, I went to bible school as well), I realized that the faith required to believe in god was exactly the same faith required to believe all those other characters were real.

Then I began to study older religions and gods. Surely all of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc. had strong faiths in thier gods, yet today most people dismiss them as mythologic figures. Why should god be any different? I decided, for myself, there was no god and that god and religion provided easy answers where man could not find one.

Hopefully, Billy, this elaboration explains my comment and you can rest comfortably knowing that I don't disrespect your beliefs or dispute your faith.

People who write college textbooks are "atheists?" And isn't objectivity and religious doctrine a little oxymoronic? After all, religion is based on faith, isn't it? Belief in things unseen and unprovable?

Just...read and think, OK?

Incidentally, I always loved the Greek and Roman gods; they were accesssible and people could relate to them. Maybe that's what celebrities are now, people you can "relate" to.

*

Seeing as 80% of the American people believe that there are angels all around us everywhere, religion's a damn fine selling point for Bush. (Don't quote me on the 80% thing, I heard it on the radio) All these contradictions are mind-boggling: Bush says there are WMD in Iraq, but hang on -- we haven't FOUND any. We're all left scratching our heads and holding our dicks and no one DOES anything? What the fuck is going on? Funny how people just kind of absorbed and accepted the abuse of those Iraqi prisoners. "Oh well, boys will be boys."

Osama Bin Laden is arguably the most wanted guy on the planet and what do I read the other week? A bunch of people talking about how the manhunt is very disorganized and a bit haphazardous (too many branches not corresponding with each other, etc).

And John fucking Ashcroft. He took off the "We take pride in our Justice System" from the Justice Department, because pride is a sin. He made his employees sing about God every day. Also, why does Bush drag the baby Jesus into every damn speech he makes? Why does he go on and on about morals and doing the "right thing" while mentioning God in the same breath? IT'S HIS SELLING POINT! HE KNOWS DAMN WELL WHAT GETS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

You tell 'em, you tell 'em, what -- what they want to hear, a-and then you do what you want. It's the moral thing to do.

Y'know, if you cheat on your girlfriend, and you tell her, that means you don't really love her.

Same difference. Except nobody dies when you cheat on your girlfriend!