War and Christianity

Eddie Deezen SO rocks!

I have to rent it again...."HOLLYVOOOD!!!" I can't eat cracker jacks without thinking of the compass scene and the Japanese Naval Officer telling the German that "these things take time"

Try actually reading what I wrote about that above

The following are actual passages from the Koran and that FACT cannot be disputed.


Basically, we hate Jews unless they believe in allah alone



Says clearly here not to be friends with Christians and Jews and that if you do then you are no longer considered a Muslim


Pretty clear here… Fight (that means war) those that do not believe in allah (that means everyone) and establishes a social order stating that those given the book (Christians and Jews) are in a state of subjection to Muslims.


Muslims are our masters


This says that Jesus was not the son of God as Christians believe



Here are some other verses that pertain to EVERYONE that is not Muslim.


um… urges the believers (Muslims) to war… that’s pretty clear.


That’s you unless you are a Muslim… you are the vilest of animals in allas sight


Fight non-Muslims til there aren’t any left


Nice… kill us where you find us


The “them” is all non-Muslims.


Strive hard against us and be unyielding… now there is a tolerant, peacfull religion


Again, fight (again this means war) unbelievers, let them find you in hardness… guess being friends is out ay?


Lets see… what do they recommend for unbelievers (that’s you if you are not a Muslim)… cut off your head… cut off your fingertips… punish you with fire (anyone remember the pics of the world trade center as the planes blew up? That vehicle was not chosen randomly)

If Muslims do not fight becomes deserving of allah’s wrath and will live in hell


If you do not believe in allah then you should be murdered, crucified or have your hands and feet cut off on opposite sided… nice


Don’t be friends with non-believers… just kill them


If you disbelieve they will make you enter fire so often you are thoroughly burned


Severe punishment… fun… cant wait


Again, war til none are left who do not believe


So, with the clap of a hand, they can do whatever they want?… maybe we should all convert if it is that easy


Go ahead… the gate is still open no matter what you do



Nice peaceful religion there.



I agree that SOMEONE here is ignorant neehai… facts back up what I said… how bout you?



Let others judge for themselves who has read it and who has not by the actual passages I quote above. I will comment on the Jihad later but do not have the time atm. More evidence to come.

Wow, thanks Billy. A lot to digest, there, but you certainly rose to the challenge! It makes me realize that I need to do a lot more personal research on these topics...

Jesus was a notorious pacifist as was the God of the Old Testament. It was not untill the writings of St. Augustine (354 - 430) and St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) that the christian sect decided upon a course of "just war". Yet war, in the christian view, still had to adhere to certain standars such as:
There must be a just cause for the war.
War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.
The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.
The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.
Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.
Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first.
There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.
The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.
The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.
Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.
Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

Hmmm...the US broke all those rules but one now didn't we.

I do not believe that any well read person would argue the point that the Koran is far more militant than the bible. But in the same light I do not believe that an educated person would state that christianity is without dirty hands. In fact I would walk out on a limb and say that christianity has become increasingly more militant over the last few hundred years and will continue to do so as long as people continue to believe that there is a right and wrong when it comes to spirituality.

Both the bible and the Koran were written during a time when most people could not read and since their original writings both books have been edited and revised to suit the politics of the time. Most people forget that point. None of us are reading the actual unadulterated text as written by Muhhamed or by Jesus and the Apostles. Some will choose a fundamentalist approach and take read from the books as concrete; whereas the majority will vie for the middle ground with an understanding that the texts are not complete or untainted by the hands of those with malicous or less than righteous intentions. This is apparent in both religions.

While you support the war, billy, you forget the fundamental principles laid forth by your martyr....
"Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword." (NAS, Matthew 26:52-53)
or
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. (NIV, Matthew 5:38-45)

There will always be radicals. We can choose to convert them to our way via bloodshed or we can understand them and allow them to live as they choose. The wonderful thing is that many of the youth in these countries are not following the ways of their elders. They want freedom but they need time to advance technologically. I could go on and on about this but I'll refrain except for to quote an old christian saying "Idle hands are the devil's plaything." Those in the middle east who remain without work are far more predisposed to radical thought. Anyhow, the point is that whether the mandate for war is coming from God or Allah it is still wrong. Two wrongs do not make a right but Bin Laden's head makes a catharsis and that is what I want.

I can't look at oranges without wanting to put them over my eyes and say "I'm a bug! I'm a bug!" Definitely will have to rent it soon.

Oh, and Taco... Eddie Deezen does indeed rock! hehe

Do you have a favorite anything? I mean, as long as you have an opinion of something, your part of a "group"; in turn, you subcounsciously discriminate regardless whether or not your aware that you full under a specific class/group.

Interesting insight! I think the difference is when we ascribe value to a thing or a choice or a group or whatever. It's the right vs. wrong, good vs. bad conundrum. In many cases, I think things just "are."

Funny that your definition of 'fight' is 'war'.

Such a maquiavelic way of thinking probably won't satisfy most of the citizens of your country.

When u say "we" who are u talking about?

Basically -- http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Ultimately, there are two holy texts in the Islamic faith. The Qur'an only exists today in interpretations. Any translations further complicate the interpretations. The other is Sunnah.

The religion itself does span before Muhammad. Only the Qur'an is believed to be the direct word of Allah and much of the religion as we know it today is based on Muhammad and the Qur'an.

However, upon a few searches of three different interpretations of the Qur'an, I have been unsuccessful in procuring the passages Billy has made reference to. Even just searching for 'jew' only turned up a sparse few passages that never contained a single one of the passages cited by Billy.

To me, the Islamic faith is actually quite peaceful.

It's interpretations like the supposed Hadith interpretations probably belong to the very small extremist factions. Just like there are certain interpretations of the Bible that are quite spun and extremist in nature.

Billy is spewing hateful propaganda.

Gasp!

Naturally, it is a requirement for Billy to completely demonize and incite hatred towards Muslims. How else can he justify his own beliefs. Christians have a long tradition of labelling those who do not believe exactly as they do as heretics, evil dooers, demons.

It will be easier for us to murder them (again) if we think of them as hostile or unworthy.

It is a sickness. I pity Billy and those like him.

This is laughable neehai. I do NOT hate Muslims or anyone else for that matter… even you and your warped, bias views. My post is an attempt at enlightening some of what the Koran ACTUALLY says.

I do not pretend I have any chance to reach someone like you who is unwilling to explore the ACTUAL teachings of Mohammad yourself. You are happy in your blissful utopia with shades covering your eyes. But, maybe just one person will go look for him/herself and see what this religion stands for and that will be worth it.

Furthermore, my own beliefs have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the Koran, Muslims or any other religious text or doctrine that is not related to Christianity. For the record, my beliefs are based on a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, a concept that I know you have no understanding, the teachings of Jesus contained in the New Testament as well as the basis for Christianity contained in the Old Testament.

Please point out where I condoned murdering Muslims or anyone else for that matter before YOU spew your hate and venom. I will state here very clearly that I do NOT condone murdering anyone. As I stated before, this is NOT a religious war to begin with and to state it is one is itself hateful propaganda. While you are at it, go ahead and point out where I labeled anyone heretics, evil doers or demons. You cannot, it is YOU who is fond of labeling.

You do not know me and have a very limited, small understanding about anything to do with me. Do not put words in my mouth and do not pretend to have insight into any motivation I might have.

As for your pity, you can save it for someone that needs it. I pity you for your closed mindedness and willingness to blindly accept untruths without making any effort to explore them or back them up with a single piece of evidence.

Billy, do you believe that disobedient children and adulterers should be stoned to death? Do you believe that eating shellfish is a sin? Do you believe that if someone is gored by an ox, both he and the ox should be killed? Do you believe that people who break the sabbath should be executed? Do you practice animal sacrifice? Should swearing be punishable by stoning to death? All of those things are in the Bible.

I understand it Billy. I have a personal relationship with Boo-Berry - the ghost, remember him? Sadly, fewer and fewer folks these days have a personal relationship with him.

I'm waiting to see how Billy addresses this one.

Correct me if im wrong, but was'nt all that during the OLD Testament? If so, excuse me for a lack of better words, but its sorta *irrelevant* to Christianity since theres a NEW Testament and all...

EDIT: Wait, nevermind.

Well, that's kinda the funny thing about it. The New Testament supercedes the Old, rendering it so much toilet paper. However, people just seem to love pulling in bits from the OT to justify certain behaviours, or persecute certain groups, or whatever, even though it's no longer even a valid religious text, per se.

Of course, that's open to argument, which kinda invalidates the religion period. What kind of "Word of God" is open to semantic argumentation? Geez.

Hehe, yep... that was my point. Christians obviously don't take every word of the bible as the law of God. I assume the same is true for mainline Muslims and the Qu'ran. Would it be any more fair to point at Islam and claim it's a more warlike religion than to point at Christianity as the religion that really really hates shellfish?

Yeah yeah, just my 2L,
Don't really think it's as much as Christianity declaring war as much as maybe some greed Bush who just can't get enough cheese!!! Religion's alway been and always probably will be a scape goat for humans to be inhuman to each other, simply because we can't find any really good reason as to why where the only species that continually preys on itself. I think here we got a guy flappin his lips to make it seem like he's got a better reason to go to war in a Muslim nation other than for the green. How much money has gone back and forth between the Saubis and the Bush family? Why stop now, eh?!

I'm not the one who called it a crusade.

It is just another in a long line of murders in the name of Jesus. I daresay more people have been killed in the name of Jesus than for any other reason.

Billy, you made yuor post for a specific reason. You were trashing another religion by pulling things out of context. It is hateful and typical.

There are indeed some parts of the Koran that seem to condemn Christianity and Judaism and there are other sections that are much friendlier. I think it is actually devil and sun worshippers that Moslems are instructed to kill. Historically, Moslem kingdoms in Spain and Africa provided Jews a home and refuge from Christians, who were all too willing to borrow money from Jews and then kill them.

Um, Germany and Italy declared war on US. We had only declared war on Japan. Some of the Axis nations, like Finland and Bulgaria were never actually at war with us, though we did bomb the shit out of Romania.

I don't think you've acutally read the QUR'AN.

Spell it right and maybe people would believe you've read it.

So far if you understood what the Qur'an was about, you'd know that the original texts are lost in antiquity and all that exists today is the interpretations. Of which you seem to have quoted one of the obviously warped ones.

Check out my link and search for keywords in any of the passages you've cited. You won't find a single one in three seperate interpretations/translations.

Enough said.