War and Christianity

There are a couple of things I need to say before I answer this question.

First I want to thank you Chip for the opportunity to attempt to answer a question like this. There are many misconceptions about Christianity and this question is a very good one that many non-Christians have trouble with. It is not easy to understand and requires a much more detailed answer than I am able to give but I will do my best.

Second is that I want to say publicly that I am not a minister and that there are many who are more qualified to answer this than me but I am willing to give it a try and pass along information I have learned along the way.

Here goes. There is a vast difference between the New Testament and the old. Much of the Old Testament was specifically meant for the Jews as a struggling nation trying to survive amixt persecution and a harsh environment.

Things like not eating shellfish were because of health reasons as shellfish was much more dangerous than it is now. There were many “laws” that seem harsh by 20th century standards but were necessary to maintain an orderly society and help the Jews create a society that would survive.

Sacrificing an animal is hard for 20th century man to understand too. Animals at that time were kind of like money. They were traded and had great value. God required sacrificing animals as a way for the Jews to show their devotion through giving something of great value to God. Jesus did away with the need for sacrifices because he took the place of the animal and sacrificed himself for the sake of all mankind.

Stoning people to death is in the Old Testament for various things and I totally agree that it is difficult for me to understand why that was required too but that is the way it was. You have to understand that this was not a 20th century world and when a new society is started it probably would not survive in those times if the laws were not so strict.

The next thing that needs to be said is that the Bible was written by men and is NOT viewed as infallible. Yes, it was “inspired” by God but there are many occurrences that were the interpretations of men who lived thousands of years ago. Is the Bible perfect? Yes and no. Yes in that all of the Bible is useful for teaching and learning. No in that there are things in it that are wrong.

This is a good place to answer a question you posed in your next post:

Your assumption is wrong. The Koran is viewed as the direct word of God and is viewed infallible to all Muslims. To question not only a single word but even a punctuation or period is punishable by death. This is a fundamental difference in the way the religions view the written basis for their respective religions.

Next I think this is an excellent place to talk about what the Bible is to begin with. The Bible is a collection of stories, letters and text written over thousands of years by many different authors. The Bible is referred to as the “canon” which literally translates “yardstick” or measuring tool. As such the Bible is not meant to be perfect but a yardstick which to measure your own actions. Taken in its totality, there is a truth that becomes evident and it is that truth that I believe is God’s “inspiration” and what we all should strive for.

Here is a link that gives much more detail about the Bible’s canonization. It is too lengthy to put here and most of you will not want that much detail anyway. http://www.anabaptists.org/history/howwegot.html

Now, truly understanding the Bible as a yardstick and not without error also leaves much to be desired when it comes to figuring out what is good or not. It is not simply picking and choosing whatever you want to be true and hanging your hat on that but requires a detailed study of each verse. It’s context, who it was written too, the original purpose of the document, the translation to English, the writer’s understanding of the world around him as well as many other things.

Ok, where does Jesus fit in? I am glad you asked that question. The Jews took the Bible and expanded upon it. Scribes wrote volumes of information expanding upon what was written about how to live a sin free life. When I say volumes, I mean volumes. Information covering minute details of their life like how many steps that could walk on the Sabbath, what they were allowed to carry from one room to another, what they could eat, etc… They Jews of that day thought that it was possible and the way to reach heaven. The Sadducees the Pharisees held themselves up as righteous and claimed to follow each and every one of these laws. Judaism had become all about these laws and focused upon them.

Jesus came to earth for many reasons. One of them was to bring a “new law” to replace the multitudes of laws that the Scribes had written. What was important to God was not acts and works but what was in your heart. It was not enough to not be an adulterer for example, it is a sin to even think about it. This claim was quite radical to the Jews of that day and it is no wonder that they rejected Jesus. It smashed their belief that they could indeed be righteous and attain heaven by works alone. Jesus basically said that it was impossible to be without sin and put us all in the same boat. It also established the need for forgiveness and did away with anyone thinking that they were better than anyone else.

Jesus did away with many of the laws of the Old Testament and established some new ones. Does this mean that everything in the Old Testament is irrelevant and not needed? No, all scripture is useful in teaching and is important. Just because animal sacrifices are no longer required does not mean that nothing can be learned from them.

Anyway, I truly hope and pray that the information I have shared will help you have a better understanding of Christianity and that my answer to your questions were satisfactory. Above all God commands us to love one another, Christians, Jews, Muslims, people with no faith at all, everyone. I have no hate in my heart for Muslims but cannot sit by when it is said that there is basically no difference between the two faiths. There are many good people who are Muslims and the faith they have as well as their strict adherence to their laws are to be admired. All Muslims are not evil but to say that the teachings in the Koran teach peace and love for all people is just not accurate.

Juro, I really did not expect you to have any understanding about what it means to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ but your words are sad in that your intolerance shines through when you attempt to ridicule me because of my religious beliefs.

It continues to amaze me how intolerant many liberals are when it comes to Christians. You will yell and scream about how intolerant you think Christians are but when it is your turn all you can come up with is a total lack of tolerance for my beliefs.

As stated above, the Old Testament is not irrelevant at all. All scripture is useful for teaching and has a purpose.

Just because the need for SOME of it was done away by Jesus does not mean it all is toilet paper in any way. I agree that verses have been used in the past to justify horrible acts but that does NOT mean that is what God intended.

People who justify persecution with anything in the Bible do not have a good understanding of God's will. Unfortunately some people will only look at what some of these misguided people do and completely ignore what the majority of Christians believe. Acts of a few have been used over history to unjustly persecute entire groups and Christians have been persecuted the same way. None of it is right. Love and forgiveness is the basis for Christianity and the few that have strayed off course do NOT speak for the majority of Christians.

Think what you want Icon, it is of little consequence to me.



Qur’an is certainly a way of spelling it but Koran is accepted too. I fail to see why you think this is a point worth arguing about.



Go ahead and try to find just 1 practicing Muslim who will agree with you and say that the current translations of the Qur'an/Koran are not the direct word of God and are indeed falable. I challenge you.



You cannot be serious… Did you even do this? I did and the context of your post validates mine. I will show 1 here for everyone and see no need to go further since you claim that we will not even find 1.

My quote:

Your source’s quote”

Ummm… these are supposed to be different from my quote? These say the same thing Icon.

I have some links too Icon… here are 2 translations of the Qur’an/Koran as resources you may use.

With a minimal amount of effort you could have produced these too.

http://www.submission.org/Q-T.html
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM


I couldn’t end my post any better than agreeing with you… nuf said.

Y'all are still arguing here? About two religions that are virtually the same? Same beliefs, same origins, same honored dead, same geography and similar cultures, same agressive, warlike tendencies founded on similar missionary ethics and a common belief in the "rightness" and "only-ness" of the religion? Similar lack of toleration for other cultures, peoples, beliefs? Two of the three main Western world religions, both largely responsible for their civilizations colonizing the world in different periods after 800 AD?

I sometimes think the reason why Christianity and Islam have a long and difficult history together is because there's no useful difference between the two. You always hate the people who are like you the most.

Contrast that with the interesting relationship between Confucianism and Daoism in China, for example.

That is so astoundingly wrong that I don't know where to start... nobody with a working knowledge of Christianity and Islam would claim then to be the same.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Where to start? A quick perusal of the common origins, history, and dogma of both religions will demonstrate that it's a worthy position to take. That, and an open mind. It's no surprise that Christians and Muslims don't claim to have very similar characteristics, beliefs, and experiences. After all they have over a thousand years of violence and hostility between them, as well as uncomfortably similar views of their place in the world.

Oh please Billy. I am not intolerant of your beliefs one bit. If you've read ANY of my posts you'd know that. I believe people should be free to worship whatever entity they like - or not. I don't really care.

Next time I throw in a little tongue-in-cheek post, I'll clearly spell it out for you since the humor seemed to evade your mind.

I do find it impossible to understand how you can have feelings for something that doesn't exist - but you have to understand, I don't believe in god(s), so it's probably a lost cause for me. Continue on with your relationship.

God is very unhappy with this thread and it is fucking up my Sunday morning.

Just once I would like to have a Sunday of peace and quiet. Thanks a lot!

I see… it is perfectly acceptable to you to make fun of my stating I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ… very funny indeed. This is exactly the kind of intolerance that Christians have to deal with all the time and your being blind to the fact that it is of poor taste is kinda sad.



I truly feel bad for you that you feel that way. A personal relationship with Christ is one of the most fulfilling things to me and has made me a better person. I have heard it said that there is a God sized hole in all of us that can only be filled by Him. I find this to be true.

I respect your right to not believe but that doesn’t stop me from praying that some day that will change.

You are free to have that opinion but you would be hard pressed to find someone who has studied both religions thoroughly to agree with your saying that they are the same.

Are there similarities? Yes there are some. Are there differences? Yes, many many differences. The thing is that the differences are profound and important enough that it simply is not accurate to say that they are the same.

Some of the following I have found on the internet may be the same as Billy's.

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

I'm sorry but if some Muslims adhere to these texts there is no wonder that terrorism is alive and well in the Middle East.

Alexa

That's really at the heart of what I was getting at. I think a majority of Muslims feel the same way about how the actions of the radical minority are used as an excuse to characterize the entire belief system. I personally think that all religions are wrong, but that's just me. Even though I often disagree with you I do appreciate the fact that you haven't formed your opinions in a vacuum. It seems a majority of religious believers don't bother to study their own religion, let alone any of the others. I think you have the inevitable myopia of the true believer but I respect that you at least try to have an objective view.

You can make the same argument about Christianity, Alexa.



That one should sound familiar, since Bush is so fond of using it as an excuse for unilateral warmaking.



That verse has been used as justification for persecuting the Jews for the last twenty centuries.



That one is a lovely way of saying "submit or die."



Hmmmm, would that be banishment or death? Odd that it doesn't specify


I could go on and on. I'll grant that the koran has more in your face intolerance than the bible but you only need to look back through history to see that both religions and their holy texts have been used as justifications for intolerance and wholesale slaughter throughout the ages.

Those poor Christians. Such a heavy cross to bear. It reminds me of that guy, the one that was nailed to a cross. I can't remember his name but talk about suffering!


That is just filthy.

That perspective is fairly common among people who study religions, to the point where you'll find it standard fare in most college textbooks dealing with the subject. The similiarities outweigh the differences by a large factor.

edited to get rid of a provocation.

Billy, really man, get a sense of humor or a slightly thicker skin. If I was intolerant of your beliefs, as you suggest I am, I'd be all about banning religion completely. But, I'm not - who am I to tell you or anyone else what they can or cannot believe in.

If you found my comment about my relationship with BooBerry in bad taste, well, I'm sorry you feel that way. It's rather interesting that you expect me to respect your personal relationship with god (a mythical creature in my mind), but you find my relationship with an equally mythical being silly and a joke to belittle yours.

So, I will retract my comparison between BooBerry and your god only because I do not want to have you believe I do not value your relationship. I will note your intolerance for my beliefs.

I believe religion serves a purpose in helping those find the strength that for one reason or another they cannot find within themselves.

Don't waste your energy feeling bad for me Billy, because I don't need it. See, I am a good person, my parents raised me to respect and value individuals for what they contribute. They also raised me to not lie, steal, cheat, etc., etc. I don't need some other thing to make me a good person.. because I already am.

Again Billy, spend your energy wisely. Pray for something more worthwhile, like say.. all of our soldiers return home safely. Don't waste it hoping someday I might see 'your way', cuz it will NEVER happen. I don't put any value in mythical creatures other than mild entertainment.

If you're this condesending and nasty now, what must you have been like before?

Wow...

In case you somehow have'nt relized this by now, let me clue you in; People take religion very seriously. When you contrast someones god to a cartoon character of course they'll get pissed... not only is it very insulting, its also very imature.

Thanks Apex. Somehow that completely eluded me.

Why not look at it as Juro making light of his lack of belief in a deity rather than seeing it as him equating Billy's idea of god with booberry? People choose to be offended by things. I've always been more of a count chocula person myself

So it was your intention to come off as immature?

"Second is that I want to say publicly that I am not a minister and that there are many who are more qualified to answer this than me but I am willing to give it a try and pass along information I have learned along the way."

"Your assumption is wrong. The Koran is viewed as the direct word of God and is viewed infallible to all Muslims. To question not only a single word but even a punctuation or period is punishable by death. This is a fundamental difference in the way the religions view the written basis for their respective religions."

Both of these quotes were made by Billy Grace within the same response.
Infallible to all Muslims? Being by your own admission not an expert on your own faith, you certainly feel qualified to speak with certitude about Islam. I thought I was fairly 'read-up' on the faith systems of the world, but even I wouldn't try to make a statement like that.