War and Christianity

But for how long Billy? If we don't stand up for our Constitution and our Bill of Rights, how long before we end up with a dictator like Saddam?

Thanks Rose, you really came through with the source marterial. Fast too. As to the question of who really owns our bodies, here's a couple articles relating to potential forced vaccination of Americans.

http://www.909shot.com/Issues/homeland%20security.htm

http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=699

Good point, Rose. Great articles, btw. I used to listen to one of "those" radio talk shows, years back, that cited many similar incidents of governmental tyranny.

To a degree, it leaves me wondering, "how the heck do we fight the 'man'?"

Here in Texas, for instance, they are trying to toll many existing highways. The citizens are mostly outraged, and there is quite a bit of documented collusion behind the scenes. A local man formed a PAC, and is coordinating a recall for several city and state officials. Yet, the state has barely batted an eye.

I guess the moral of the story is, become the squeaky wheel, folks. Don't ever feel intimidated about contacting your represented officials. If enough people express outrage for stuff like this, things will eventually change for the better...

Don't give up Paolo, something similar happened with a highway near me recently, but public opposition was so intense that the government had to back down.

http://www.nupge.ca/news_2003/n24jy03a.htm

I can't find any documentation of it atm but I seem to recall that the protest culminated with hundreds of people blocking the highway with their cars and refusing to move. Of course they seem to treat protesters in America more harshly that in Canada, so maybe you shold invest in a gas mask and body amour if you're going to try anything like that.

And Billy could you tell us how "we" are better than "them." Saying that a government is a democracy or republic is one thing, actually exemplifying it is another. If you have yet to read the pat act and pat act II, I would suggest checking it out. It would behoove you to know exactly what your gov-co is planning to take away. It would be benificial if you understood exactly what privilages the gov-co is giving themselves in return.

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/patriot2draft.html
http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

The alterations of the definition of words such as terrorist are a bit frightening and very broad. We could all be considered terrorist and it would benefit the powers that be if the gen-pop were considered terrorist. Know your facts. To tell you the truth I would far prefer standing before a tank knowing that my government was a force to be fought against rather than standing in tepid water and comfortable numbness never realizing that they are turning on the gas. Question everything, accept nothing. You hear what you want to hear...and frankly that makes you a "perfect" citizen.

um... that can't be a serious question. If you REALLY have to ask a question like this I think you are too far gone and will not be satisfied with any answer I might give.

hehe, it may come down to that...

But, in Austin, it's a much more massive proposition. Virtually the entire freeway system will become tollways. The vast majority of these highways have already been built and paid for by gasoline taxes. Check out this map:

http://www.austintollparty.com/tollMaps.php

Different does not equal better. I would rather be in a country fighting for freedom than in a country where everyone gives it up so freely in an effort to attain some elusive bits of safety from some unknown threat of terror.

We have 25% of the worlds prison population residing behind bars within our own borders. 143 out of every 100,000 people are in jail right now and that is not including those who are still in the court system. This is more per-capita than both China and Russia, who used to lead the world prison pop. How can we call ourselves a free society when we kill more prison inmates via capital punishment than the countries we invade under the auspices of promoting freedom? Do you realize that last year alone 10% of death row inmates had IQ scores of less than 70 and that only 15 states have passed legislation banning placing mentally retarded inmates on death row. Bush doesn't seem to mind at least in his actions as Gov of Texas:



How can we, a prison state, tell a dictatorship that we are better? 63% of the people incarcerated in the US are in jail doing mandatory sentences for non-violent crimes. They are subjected to gaurd brutality, rapes, inmate beatings and homicides. Many go in as non-violent offenders and leave with a murder rap. Their sentences are not based upon culpability, motivation or likelyhood of recidivism. The laws created to jail the kingpin have failed by a longshot incarcerating many petty criminals who are left without the hope of a fair trial. The decision is made by the prosecutor, who has absolutely no accountability and will go to great lengths to "win" their case...even if the innocent suffer. Who is fighting for their freedom?

I never said that Saddam was a fair and decent leader but I am also not so deluded as to think that the leaders of the US have not been party to some pretty hainous crimes against humanity both against its own citizens and the world community. You are likely right that you will not satisfy me with any answer seeing as how you think that the American way is the only way and that we entered this war with clean hands.

You also seem to assume that all countries are ready for democracy, which is far from the truth. There is an evolutionary cycle involved in the creation of a government. One cannot go directly from generations of dictatorship straight way to democracy, it never works. So for us to think that we can waltz in to Iraq, drop some bombs and suddenly they will become a fairytale capitalist democracy is foolish. This transformation will take several decades of building infrastructure, creating jobs, educating the youth to lead and waiting for the old guard to die out. This will also mean that they will need to form a military in order to protect themselves from those poised to take advantage of a fledgling government...that is if all of us "better" folks will let them...

Very persuasive, Isis. I think you are right on WRT the evolutionary process toward democracy...

Also, love your signature tag lines. Here's another good one that underscores the sentiment of your last post:

They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin

Why am I doing this when I said I wouldn’t? I really can’t answer that except maybe I simply cannot believe you are serious but someone might actually think that this is true.


Different DOES equal better in this case… waaaaaaaaay better. And I would rather live in a country that is led by an evil dictator who kills everyone who opposed him.

You are seeing the world through jade color glasses if you do not recognize that the TERRORISTS declared war on us on 9/11 and that in a post 9/11 world we all have to be willing to give up some measure of freedom so we can catch these bastards before they kill again. Thought like yours only enabled our enemies to KILL more of us. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever with doing this. I have nothing to hide and if me giving up a measure of freedom helps keep some of my fellow Americans alive, I am all for it.


Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time. I have no problem with incarcerating criminals, apparently you do.



Please define what you mean by “prison state”. And we can tell Saddam and his boys that because it it true btw. WE ARE BETTER ISIS. Perfect? No. Better? Yes.


So, you are here telling us all that non-violent crime offenders should not go to jail? Nice… with a judicial system like that why have one at all? Maybe we should just have laws against “violent” crimes and drop the rest.


They who, and according to who? Isolated criminal instances happen “some” of the time but these are CRIMINAL acts. You have been watching too much TV Isis.

Is our judicial system perfect? No. But is it better that Saddam like justice? Yes. We will continue working to make it better but our prison system is allot better than doing like your ole pal Saddam and shooting them in the street.


Ok, there are “some” things we may agree with but to sit there and say that “MANY” petty criminals do not have the hope of a fair trial is ridiculous. Can you pull out some isolated ocurrances from the numerous trials in our judicial system? Yes. But I could produce umpteen more that got exactly what they deserve. Should we work to correct these few that are a minute percentage of the number of trials in the US that fall in the cracks? Yes, of course but to make a blanket statements like you do is dangerous.


Two questions… Is the prosecutors job not to make the best case he/she can against the accused? Are the accused not provided with their own lawyer if they cannot or will not obtain one whose job is to do the best he/she can to defend the accused? You act as if the answer to both of those questions is no.


Let’s set the record straight here. Saddam KILLED everyone who opposes him including gassing 5,000-10,000 Kurds including women and children. He was a brutal dictator who ruled by force and would KILL you if given a chance. To compare a homicidal maniac like that to President Bush is in a word… insane.


Hmmm, it worked in Germany… it is working in Afganistan… and given a chance it will work in Iraq too. Human beings have the basic fundamental desire to be free and given the choice will choose freedom every time.


Who ever said this was going to be quick??? Haha… that is incredible that you believe that anyone thinks we will not be there for quite a while before the Iraqi people become strong enough to defend themselves. Yes, it will talk some time but I for one say the freedom of the Iraqi people is worth it. Too bad that you and the liberal left would rather just leave Saddam in place to continue his evil reign of terror. I am proud to be an American and proud that President Bush has the fortitude to do something other than stick his head in the sand and pretend our enemies will just quietly go away while they in fact plot to kill more of us. God Bless America.

If that's your take, Billy, then the terrorists have already won...I couldn't disagree more with this assertion.

Same here Paolo. As I see it if I have to give up even a measure of my freedom, the terrorists have already won.

Isis and Rose did a pretty thorough job of distinguishing between legitimate criminal incarceration vs. America's "throw-away" incarceration mentality. You missed the point here, Billy.



I don't think anyone made any suggestion to this effect. Rather, they were making a case for an increasing lack of redress and true justice in the USA, and the fact that pretty much anyone can be labeled a criminal when it meets the government's purposes.



Perhaps, but do you honestly think anyone is actually "working to make it better?" If anything, the Patriot Act and other legislative actions have further stripped us of our Constitutional rights and protections.




By all means, ours is an adversarial courtroom construct. But, don't tell me that the average, overworked public defender is a fair match for a zealous prosecutor with political ambitions.



Afghanistan and Iraq are apples and oranges. There hasn't been near the backlash or insurgency problem in the former. And Germany...that's a whole other can of worms.



I'm not affiliated with the liberal left, by any stretch of the imagination. I am a moderately conservative independent, which I believe allows for greater objectivity. For freedom and democracy to work in Iraq, they have got to want it so badly that the majority would be willing to die to achieve it. If you recall, that's how our own path toward freedom and independence began. I just don't see that as being a strong case in Iraq. In reality, we are attempting to prop up a pseudo-democratic regime in Iraq to serve our own foreign policy objectives in the region.

You know billy I have have only this to say, that by simply uttering the word democracy one feels they have a hall pass to the moral high ground and can therefore bypass the need to defend the actions or ideas of those whom one chooses to follow. The taking of kabul is far from installing a democratic government in Afghanistan (I would hope that you realize the fact that Afghanistan is not concentrated in Kabul and that the original problems in Afghanistan remain outside the confines of the capital). Similarly, our attacks on Iraq have nothing to do with the promotion of freedom and everything to do with the pipeline. If you think for a moment that we have done anything to forward democracy in either country then you, my friend, need to read.

Further, I do not have to watch the tele to realize the problems in the American prison system. Anyone not swayed by the agenda's of the libs or the neo-cons should be able to google up enough evidence to support the fact that we have more people behind bars than any other country on the face of the earth including Iraq. There is no such thing as a fair trial any more when manditory minimums come into play. Regardless of the motivations, likelyhood of recidivism or culpability involved a person is given the same sentence...king pen or street dealer, it doesn't matter. This is not the equivalent of a just trial.

And how have we treated those prisoners in Iraq billy? Would it be so far fetched to consider that we treat them in a manner which is considered the "normal" treatment of prisoners across the board? And what about those prisoners in Guantánamo Bay, are they recieving the democratic treatment one would expect from a "free" country? You can call me an idiot...you can discount, without evidence to the contrary, every bit of information I put forth but in the end you are wrong. President Bush has done nothing to further democracy in the world. He has killed in the name of it, he has allowed the Constitution to be used as a roll of quilted northern by saying that he is protecting it, but in the end he has done absolutely nothing but trample on the freedoms of the many by convincing the few that Saddam had something to do with 9/11 and that our liberties must be sacrificed in an effort to attain safety. We are not the moral authority of the world. Our own system needs to self-check the definitions of democracy and freedom before traipsing off to fix the world.

Believe whatever you want, billy. The facts are out there if you take the time to remove the blinders of allegiance long enough to see the truth. Don't peg me a liberal...I like small government, I am against the welfare state created to oppress the masses, I am for personal responsibility and I love the Constitution which was written to protect me from you. That said I will not remain silent just because some believe that disagreeing with Gov-co makes me somehow unamerican. I believe that it is that very thing that makes me American. So follow on my brother....one day you will regret it.

Ohh and as far as culpability is concerned, our personal involvement in the arming and training of Hussien, Al Queda and the Mujahadeed makes us far more at fault than any of your unsupported claims that Hussien was affiliated with Bin Laden.

You are blind... no... you are blind...

You are wrong... no... you are wrong... and so on and so on.

I am willing to make a concession that the truth lies soemwhere in the middle of the case you put forth, hopefully you will be objective enough to admit the same thing. If not, I retract my previous statement and insert...

You are wrong... Then I will wait on you to tell me I am wrong... round and round we go... haha!

Hey Billy,

I just want to clear up one point as I'm a little fuzzy about your stand on this issue. Do you think that Saddam had something to do with 911. If so what?

Yep, ideological ping-pong.

That's a good non-answer Isis... haha. Are you willing to compromise as I am and and meet me half way?

Akuma, to answer your question I believe that at a minimum Saddam supported Alkida with money and gave them a safe harbor. Did he plan 9/11 with Osama and help him carry it out? Probably not.

*cough*Sodidwe*cough*

....but ya know how I feel about that lol.

And yes I will more than gladly agree to disagree. But, much like you, I will never compromise with regards to anything I feel strongly about unless the facts prove me wrong. Though I do enjoy anyone, such as yourself, who forces me to question my opinions. Tis one of your most endearing characteristics and I would hope that you never compromise that facet of your personality.

Saddam? He hates Islamic terrorists. He ran a secular, albeit shitty, state. I seriously doubt that he funded them... though it's possible. Enemy of my enemy, and all that...

Heh... I always have to chuckle when I hear the moniker 'Al Qaeda'. Apparently it's an invention by the United States (the 'organization', not the terrorists themselves), because they needed an 'illegal organization' for bin Laden to belong to, in order to prosecute him in absentia for various things. Clever buggers.

Yep and they could not use the term Mujahadeed because, oops, we funded that terrorist errrr uh freedom fighting organization.

hehe, it amuses me too. It's all so marvel comics. Osama Bin Laden and the Legion of Doom might have been catchier.

Awww... Im all warm and fuzzy inside... a tear is forming in my eye as I type this… hehe... I like you too Isis... even though you are wrong! ooops!... Did I say that out loud?

..

Those who thought Arab democracy was a hopeless cause are looking more and more naive."

Those who beleive in Arab democracy have seen their friends executed on national television

Soldiers dont fight for god
Soldiers dont fight for their country
Soldiers fight for each other.

You cant shoot an 'idea' out of someones head, religious fanatics & terrorists are NOT soldiers they are civillians with guns ergo the problem.It's not glorious to die for your faith,its not glorious to die for your country because dead is just dead and a real soldier does EVERYTHING he can to stay alive.

More wars have been fought in the name of one religion or another than for any other reason, war has NOTHING to to with religion, its to do with the whim of Kings & politicians .....go ask them.