SL must move beyond the Prokofy & Blaze mindset

heh heh sorry Willow

I'm trying to reserve my posts for flaming and you are too cute to flame so well you know.



Heh heh.. I think Willow is the only one who doesn't take this stuff too seriously sometimes.

Honestly folks, I think some of the stress here is that you just get all freaked out when people disagree with you.

People disagree with me all the time (Forseti, Jeffrey, Buster Peel, etc) but I don't feel freaked out.

Heck, I usually learn how crazily stupid I am when I read their posts.

I think if we all just chilled and didn't resort to straw men and ad hominem it would be all good. The odd (friendly) joke here and there is cool too.

Blaze - Our world gets bigger and better every day. I think it would be wrong of me to claim that anyone's vision of how their SL should be is invalid. I think everyone's opinions are valid.

The thing is, what's great about SL is that it can be many things to many different people. It's not neccesary to have a universal mindset - because multiple mindsets can coexist just fine in this world. In fact, diversity of opinion is part of why SL is as rich of a community as it is.

We just need to respect each other more

Of course, the logical falacy here is the assumption that you MUST be right, and therefor anyon who disagrees with you MUST not understand what your saying.

There is a robin williams quote someone has in their sig on the board... dunno who. I hate robin williams, but the quote seems pretty applicable here:

"I'm sorry. If you were right, I would agree with you."

My opinion: the only aspect of ANY "mindset" the forum needs to dump in particular is the generic "My ideas are the only right ones, and because I'm right I can resort to name calling, imaginary groupings, exaggeration, hyperbole, and I'll throw some strawmen and red herrings in there for free".

It seems like so many forum debates (and this statement in no way is limited to only the SL forums) quickly delve into people remarking or responding in a manner that really has nothing to do with an intellegent discussion. Unfortunately, the kernel of an actual good idea or valid point is often lost in the layers of everything I listed in my first paragraph.

When that happens, very very few people with bother to respond to the valid point and instead will fan the flames by responding to the 99% of the post that consists of hot air. Obviously this process takes two sides to continue - one to start the process and the other to continue. Repeat ad nauseum.

Judicious weeding of one's own posts for flame-fodder is where to start - cleanliness begins at home. Follow through with clarification, explaination, and labeling of opinions vs. fact (when necessary). I try very hard to stick to these rules myself, but of course I don't succeed 100%.

/my humble opinion

Actually, Reit, I'm probably wrong (I usually am) but there is a germ of something there that I refer to which I am pretty sure has some truth in it.

I own a software company and have worked in the software industry all my life. The techi wiki mindset has always been a threat and an opportunity.

I am discussing the threat because I see one. There is an opportunity as well, which I could easily be convinced of.

Check out my thread on tours, for example.

However, it shouldn't be up to me to argue all sides of the issue.

I thought I was given an informal warning for "naming names" and printed out some TOS regulations that you cannot start threads about specific individuals, name them in the header of the post, name them in polls, etc. Those are adhominen attacks and are consistently defined as TOS violations by moderators.

I'm surprised that you, Merwan, who is normally at his best fanboyz behaviour, would have slipped on this one.



Awww....did someone join the game who thinks *differently* than you do recently? Too bad!

I was just saying to a friend who often reads and marvels at how nasty these posters are *to me* that there really must be quite a few mediocre minds at work here because if they don't realize they are deliberately exaggerating and misreading every post and impugning only the most malign motives, then they must be stupid.



I don't have any gang, and I don't incite hostility, I fight back. It's evident from the posts. They're on the public record.



If you mean my concern that Lindens will throw referrals to Schwanson and jack up his business? But I saw Lindens doing endorsements of players' business all the time, especially the Liaisons who have less standards than the "office" Lindens, so I'm write to call attention to that persistent probem of favouritism.



Um, I'm not a socialist. I'm not a camel, either. Of course, these things can be very hard to prove in a lynch-mob climate, but I don't care. My work and my business stands so I don't worry about forum lynch mobs say.



Oh, I quite agree that the Levittown model of the 1930s, where people "owed their soul to the company stores", has pernicious features to it, some of which are similar to communism, but the chief difference between them is that millions of people were mass NOT murdered by the corporations running the corporate towns, the way Russians were murdered in the 1930s by the Communist Party. But hey, other than that *tiny* difference why, they are *just alike*. We could talk about THAT but it's off topic.

Let me point out that while I have concerns about Levittown in general happening in the game and worry about it happening in Ansheland, let's say, I don't feel it is happening in Ravenglass Rentals and my other groups. Why? Because people are freed of the up-front purchase price of land. That's doing them a favor. And they often pay rent less than the tier they'd be paying to Lindens -- so I subsidize their rent through other aspects of my business or simply through plain old subsidy, just to make a nice sim and a better world.

That doesn't fit with your lurid nightmare of me being engaged in rapacious capitalism, hmm, does it? But you think only Schwanson can be good to newbies because he comes on with his I BUY AND SELL PRIVATE ISLANDS (at a whopping mark-up for buying it over time) and uses this loss -leader to burnish his image and his business, whereas I just do my thing without much advertisement (advertising is expensive!)

Um, could you go over again the part about how I "suck the People dry"? I'm ... um....scarfing up masses of tier and off the backs of the People making purchases of new land, where I install further enslaved masses who then buckle under my ...um...oppressive rent as they look at their gorgeous view? Yeah, I know this kind of slanderous stupidity comes from one really malicious individual in the game, but it's tripe.

Anyone in my group could tell you it is...becaues there's nothing to suck. People right-slick a box and pay it -- or don't. They are free to come and go. The rent is reasonable. The areas are nice. If they don't like it, they move on. Pretty different than Levittown, mmm? And...meanwhile, I'm the one who often takes a hit or a loss when the lot is vacant...when they ask to have my house put on "share with group" to make a modification...then swipe it...when denfensive purchases must be made constantly to hold the view intact from ugly...well the list goes on and on.



*Shrugs*. I answer your posts, not because I respect your tendentious views or wish to legitimize you, but for all the people reading this now who "get it" about you and YOUR views now : )

hi merwan:

i hope all is well with u. i am having some carpal tunnel problems so won't write much.
the one guy has some valid viewpoints, but takes to long to write them.
the other guy is just an attention whore.

so sayeth:

marilyn

Truer words were never spoken.

The Emperor is the first one who would roll over and beg to have his belly scratched if those he considered 'FIC' came to him and invited him to work cooperatively with them.

This has been evidenced three times since I got here. One only has to look to see the instances.

It isn't about 'muffling ideas', it is about gagging those who cannot cooperatively and with respect work with others to affect them.

It isn't about 'lynch mobs', it is about refusing to give even one inch of ground to people who persistantly and consistantly refuse to practice what they preach.

It isn't about 'hurting the community', it is about protecting it from those who cannot function unless there is a battle on the field.

These two people care nothing for the others who enjoy this product. They care only about being ascendant. Whatever it takes. And they live in constant frustration because they cannot be ascendant in this place. Their choice. -shrug-

**smacks merwan**

What were you thinkin giving prok another platform to talk about himself!!! Gah!!!!

As far as Blaze goes, he disagrees with people and he has a right to do so, but at least he does it in a more tolerable to the point way!

I mean just look at Blaze's post in this thread vs. Prok. There's a BIG difference.

MJ

Ahhhh, but which lynchmob? Feels different when the tables are turned eh?. I would venture a guess that many forum users see you and Prokofy as the leaders of your own lynch mob, frothing at the mouth to string up some *tekky wikkis*. That's where mis?perception comes in, something you seem to rely heavily upon, versus actual facts.

There is an important difference between Prokofy and your "pushing back" and that of a good deal of forum users. You tilt at windmills. Imaginary giants, that is where the similarity to Quixote ends though. The forum posters affected by your malaise are pushing back against something tangible, in other words, day after day of insulting, assumptive and vindictive, nitpicking, preemptive attacks.

The saddest part is to watch is the self destruction. Folks who were once you allies are now against you (especially in Prokofy's case). Prokofy has even turned on you Blaze. You meekly protested and then accepted you Scarlet Letter like a dog that is beaten too much. LL themselves think this whole claim of a tekky wikki constituent which has SL by the balls is a joke, and some of them have even made serious posts about the issue. Which of course lead to more cries of favouritism. If you want to REALLY effect change in SL, you need to be taken seriously. I am afraid, at this point, that is now for ever out of reach.

Make your points and then go on with your Second Lives. You're sure as hell not convincing many, including LL, that there is a problem here and that a good old boys network is pulling the strings. The real problem we face now is this cancer of malcontents who want to delegate what people should and shouldn't be doing.

Time and again your set proclaims that only 10% of SLers read the forums and that they in no way reflect the average SLer. So wtf are you so worried about then? So worried that it causes you endless angst, enough angst to post EVERY SINGLE DAY via your own hyperbolic, exgerrative, rubbish threads and those of other SLers in which you think you have found an inequity.

Your real issue is with LL, not the people who live within the guidelines put forth by LL.

I am triple neg rating you, BECAUSE YOU LIKE THE COLOUR PURPLE

I am triple neg rating you, because you have your own damn mall!!! You...You...

sl00t

Hmmm, interesting how shortsighted people are in attacking Merwan?
I’m sorry but he posted an ideology not a direct attack against any individual.
His post merely asks a question about a specific mindset.
A mindset that can be garnered from multitudes of postings of the individuals named.

These mindsets are blatant and there for everyone to read and come to conclusions on.
But it’s the Ideology that Merwan wants to discuss not the individuals.
Far to many people have already tried lambasting them to oblivion without fail.

So, I tend to agree with Merwan to address the mindset and try to understand it.
Why?
Because, once you understand something you can dismiss it without much adieu.

Think of it like this.
Albert Einstein gave us the Theory of Relativity.
So if we started a poll or thread about discussing Albert’s Mindset are we attacking Albert or his theories and thinking processes.
Either way the topic of this thread was not an assault.
But I do think it funny that some asshats would try to make it such.
(if you consider yourself an asshat and label yourself as such dont blame me. I'm just posting and observation and opinion and will not be held accountable for your self labeling.)

So, People discuss it.
But don’t attack the individuals.

Shadow

The truly hilarious thing about this that you guys are lovey dovey to my Alt.

But hey, it's all good.

You aren't some great prophet. You're a knee-jerk reactionary who has to deride the accomplishments of the entire community in order to feel better about yourself. Your only contribution to the grid was a griefing tool which you built in a perverted effort to nerf LSL. Now you're on a binge. You and Prokofy won't live until you've removed everything that makes SL special. You want a world where individual talent and skill is meaningless. You want a homogeneous world of Linden-provided content, and you're willing to sacrifice the very thing which makes SL great to accomplish it.

As for logical fallacies and inconsistencies, no one's better at wielding the ol' blunt hammer of rhetorical stupidity than you and Prok.

Huh? What's that all about? No, I'm not interested in suck-ups.



Um, could we see what on earth you are talking about? I'd like to see the FIC cooperation that I'm engaging in, please. Not that I deliberately boycott anybody in the game. I believe business is business. If somebody has a nice house for sale on the open market, I buy it, regardless of whether they are a fucktard on the forums, although, lately, I've begun to mull over in my mind whether I ought to become more like them, and steer and boycott as they do, but naaaah that's just not workable in a modern normal economy.


Yeah, interesting choice of words, "gagging". Ugh. This is why I don't let you people be put in charge lol. And sure, people who write FUCK YOU IN BIG LETTERS LIKE THIS on the forums, sure, they ought to be considered to be the ones who work "cooperative" lol. Such a hypocrite!




Yes, you've captured what I do brilliantly. I don't give an inch, no.



Oh, stop. We don't all have to hold hands and sit in a circle and sing "We Are the World". There can be disagreements, and reporting upon, and discussion about, and engagement in, the *very real clashes of civilizations occuring in our world.*



I honestly could care less about never being on the top 100 list or the dwellopers' list or pick-a-list. I'm secure in the knowledge that I do a good thing and have fun doing it.

Maybe that's because your alt doesn't act like a dick.

Wow! Maybe Ulrika is right, gaming the forums, nice job blaze

Nah, but my alt doesn't post ideas which are contrary to what is generally beileved and accepted.

I do.

And that really freaks people out. It freaks them out so much they start crying out "dysfunction".

I suppose we could take it as a compliment that we now seem to be attracting a more articulate and prolific bunch of forum trolls. SL is obviously big and important enough to warrant their attention.

Truly, as long as there are people to read forums, there will be people who want to whip the crowd into a frenzy, for whatever reason: To crusade against perceived "wrongs," because they like to hear themselves talk, to stroke their own egos, etc. I'm of the general mindset that the most radical voices should be largely ignored by the majority (so as not to feed their list of imagined grievances thereby giving them more reasons to post), but that their right to dissent within the rules of the TOS and CS should be protected.

We should all have the right to make stupid or incendiary or petty posts (within the rules) on forums; I know I've utilized that right in the past (always to my later embarrassment), and I probably will again, despite my best efforts to control myself.

You miss the forest for the trees, Blaze.

Nobody cares if you disagree.

It is the manner you disagree in that people react poorly too.

The same is true of prok, for that matter.

But you can never get that through to the people it needs to be got through to, because they don't see "how" the appear to others.

Actually, I think when their volume outstrips their sense, they should simply be banned.

Case in point, look how many threads are going about these two insipid fools. They're probably busting a nut on their keyboards right now with all the attention being given to them.

Shamefully, most (myself included) will not accord them the resounding silence they deserve.... and they get off on inciting others and keeping everyone at each other's throats.

Is this really what Linden Labs wants for their community? I should think not. Since it is obvious the two in question don't have enough sense to know when to shut up, I think it is time for Linden Labs to demonstrate to them that it is so.

One can hope.

I don't think we need to move beyond the mindsets put forth by Prokofy/Blaze, as they exist only in their minds. The reality of SL could not be further from the gloom and doom class warfare and all the negativity they evoke and promote. SL is as strong as it has ever been, and their limited view of the world limits only them, not the rest of us in any way.

Well said, Cristiano.

Jeska Alert!!!


***runs and hides***