YAY! More event abuse!

The event in question was deleted because it was an advertisement instead of a posting for an event - which is defined as "a special group activity that is led by a host." It is ok to have a real event where other activities such as job try outs or shopping are also happening.

There are about 600 postings in the events calender per week so we miss some non-events. At some point we hope to have a "report to moderator" button. Short of that, you can contact the Liaison on duty in world.

Here are the complete rules of what can be posted -


Event Posting Rules

There is a limit of one event per location per day on the event calendar unless the second event offers a completely different activity. Also, each person can post only one event per day regardless of the location unless the second event is completely different.

An event is defined as a special group activity that is led by a host. Examples include discussions, group meetings, hosted dances, classes, tours, and competitions. Shopping, viewing parcels for sale, and other non-group activities are not appropriate to post on the events calendar. (Most of those notices are fine to list in the classified section of the Forums.)

Examples of opportunities that are NOT OK to post as events:
Visit my land for sale.
Visit my new store, half price sale.
Come see the vendor spots for rent.
Visit my building.

Events that include organized rating of one or more Second Life residents are not allowed.

The event descriptions need to conform to PG guidelines, consistent with the overall Second Life website policy - so no overt sex descriptions; sex for money, sex chat, simulated sex, strong violence, or anything else broadly offensive.

Mature events must be listed as Mature, and held in M-rated sims.

i didn't say that.

the mechanism is that if someone is in someway stigmatized, they are more easily (and usually are) exploited.

Hiro, this was not intended as a personal affront to you. This is your thread, and you chose to single me out instead of raising the issue in a more general manner. If you don't believe that I have the right to express my opinion on the matter, you might have considered that before beginning the thread.

His Grace,

<<that doesn't follow logically. that's like saying there is also no smell, no taste, no tactile sensation in sl- and therefore there is no experience in sl. there are other routes to exploitation. money (e.g. food, land, healthcare etc) are reifications of social status and power. as long as there is social status and power, and a desire for such, there can be, and will be, exploitation.>>

Do you seriously believe that people are forced into prostitution in second life?

And when it comes to exploitation in the real world, I have to question who is the most exploited - the call girl who spends ten years in the game and then retires, or the worker who is paid minimal wages, works excessive hours and then dies before he gets a chance to enjoy his retirement?

The only people who are not exploited are those who would be happy to continue their employment for no remuneration at all, and I think that is precious few of us.

To follow up and give the Lindens credit where credit is due, I no longer see any of the obvious hiring/staffing events on the boards. I only asked that the rules as interpreted by the Lindens be applied to all SL'ers and not arbitrarily imposed. I realize that this is a difficult task, and my only real complaint was that my event was deleted while a similar hiring event was allowed to remain on the event calendar, even after I responded to the Linden that deleted my event.

And Haney, thank you for the clarification. It is much appreciated.

Disagree. So does Linden Lab (see: White Papers)

Second Life is no less real than ebay or Microsoft. Both provide virtual services that boil down to ones and zeros, both are very real.

4.3 All Data Is Temporary. When using the Service, you may accumulate treasure, experience points, equipment, or other value or status indicators and contribute to the environment ("Accumulated Status". THIS DATA, AND ANY OTHER DATA RESIDING ON LINDEN'S SERVERS, MAY BE RESET AT ANY TIME FOR ANY OR NO REASON. ALL CHARACTER HISTORY AND DATA MAY BE ERASED IN WHICH CASE EACH CHARACTER MAY BE RESET TO NOVICE STATUS. YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, NOTWITHSTANDING ANY COPYRIGHT OR OTHER RIGHTS YOU MAY HAVE WITH RESPECT TO ITEMS YOU CREATE USING THE SERVICE, ALL OF YOUR CONTENT AND ACCUMULATED STATUS HAS NO INTRINSIC CASH VALUE AND THAT LINDEN DOES NOT ENDORSE, AND EXPRESSLY DISCLAIMS (SUBJECT TO ANY UNDERLYING RIGHTS IN THE CONTENT), ANY VALUE, CASH OR OTHERWISE, ATTRIBUTED TO CONTENT OR ACCUMULATED STATUS.

Nothing temporary is ever real, in the online world.


Property in SL has real value.

Again, look above. You make it hold real value, not LL.

People make real money on SL.

That is thier gamble. LL does not say "Cash in your L$ for USD$!"

People start real relationships on SL.

Again, a choice, not a requirement.

People have their real hearts broken on SL.

It happens when you make that choice, and take that gamble. Relationship, or monetary loss.

People have real fun on SL.

SL is entertainment software, I guess it works huh?

People can be traumatized in SL.

That is honestly thier own fault.

I completely disagree with you, and I think you are being quite irrational.

To me it looks as though Hiro went after this event listing because of moral objections, from the angle that it was an ad, which it was - but this just seems to be a veil for a his viewpoint. I agree that it should've been removed (as should other ads), however not under the premise of moral objection. Furthermore, "escort" is one of those words that defies a single definition and therefore is not inherently sexual in nature.



Vade, I just watched Phillip's interview on CNET again from last summer and the exact portion of the ToS you quote above popped into my head immediately. The reason it did so is because the interviewer stated "and this is play money". Phillip quickly said "no", and went on to detail how people are making real life money off of SL and even went as far as to mention (indirectly) GOM and IGE. He then went on to point out that people were spending RL$ on land auctions.

The following question is directed at any Linden but preferably Robin or Phillip:

Which is it? Do our L$ and SL possesions have RL value? The CEO himself stated that L$ DO. If LL wiped out our L$ or possessions that cost L$ would we have a legal recourse available to us because of Phillip's publically recorded statement? This is the defining question facing LL and it's residents; is this a game or an extension of RL? If it is the latter, AND Phillip is still of the mindset that L$ are not play money, then that portion of the ToS is sorely in need of some revamping.

Maximus,

I received your IM via email the evening after the event in question. I was off shift when the IM was sent. If by the rules imposed on your event, another event were in question, the best course of action would be to alert the Liaison on duty so it can be reviewed in a timely manner.

Fair enough Jill. I responded immediately after I received notice that my event had been removed, but did not notice if you were online. My apologies for dragging you into this mess.

Eek, I need to do a number of replies.

1. David Valentino,
your response is merely a personal attack. Way to not be mature about things.
I think I have been fairly clear - event abuse is an ongoing issue, and I reported this event because it advertised obtaining employees for sex for money. This is clearly in the event guidelines as a no-no.

In addition I voiced my concern for organized brothels (let me call them for what they are) in SL, though I specifically said that people have the right to choose to do that.

In the real world, legalized prostitution is highly regulated and employees are well paid. NEITHER happens in SL, so any thought that it is okay in SL how it is is shattered.

2. His Grace,
Well stated. As I stated earlier, people have the choice to sell cybersex in SL, but the fact is that most clubs are exploiting employees who do this. It's the exploitation that's the real problem.

3. Vade,
Nolan seemed to respond to your comments fairly well. It's clear the TOS that you quote is merely to cover LL's butts legally. Phillip & LL have again and again stated the RL value of L$ and products and that they want ownership.

4. Jill, Haney,
Thanks for your attention to this. We all know event abuse is an ongoing problem, and my hopes are that by bringing them up again and again will give you folks more ammunition with the development team to get Event Listing reform up on the priority list of items to be worked on. We all know you folks are busy

5. Maximus,
I think you have your head in the sand, but whatever. Thank you for abiding by the event posting rules after you were alerted to them. I disagree with what you're doing but I'm not going to pick on you personally for it; that would be singling you out. Again, that's not my goal.

I'm going to start another thread about exploitation of prostitutes in SL. Let's leave this be since it's really not on topic.

exploitation doesn't require coersion. sometimes just a poor self-image, or low self-esteem. hence why stigmatization can lead to exploitation.

i won't argue that everyone isn't exploited to some degree. everyone probably is.

however, there are greater and lesser degrees of exploitation.

also, prostitution per se isn't exploitation, but under certain social situations of stigmatization it is exploitive and degrading.


further, does one want sl to have the image of exploitation?

actually i see exploitation as a secondary or tertiary problem.

the two preceeding problems are the stigmatization of non-normative sexuality and the objectification of women.

again, well said.

Hiro, Nolan...

It does not matter if Phillip says the L is worth X amount. Until either LL directly supports GOM and IGE, and has them sell for a SET value or until the world accepts L$ as a world wide payment (not likely, or probable) the Linden dollar is still as worthless as anything else. Everyone is taking a gamble when they sell or buy L$ off IGE or GOM. Phillip can say all he wants, but until they(LL) are actually selling it, it is a gamble, and therefore worthless to LL. The players make it worth what it is, not the company who provides the service or item.

Phillip did say this however, I wonder if what he said is binding in any manner...

Vade, interesting thoughts about tying LL to GOM or IGE. Personally I think doing so stiffles competition and puts LL at great legal risk.

However making L$ a set value is quite simply currency manipulation. L$ needs to be allow to rise to the level that it is really worth, as per supply and demand.

I think we would need Philip / Linden Lab to really answer your last question, though - namely, "Does Linden Lab's declaration that L$ is worth RL$ have any binding measure?"

Regardless, it's naieve to say that L$ has no RL value. I've sold L$ from sales of my products and made several hundred dollars. Many people do the same thing. Just because something isn't regulated or guaranteed doesn't make it less real.

You approach the issue from an interesting perspective though, Vade. Thanks for your thoughts.

Not necessarily Hiro.

What if tonight you sold 10,000L$ for 50 USD. Tomorrow, without announcement we see a post in the forum by Haney Linden that says "LL is growing fast! The currency we will now use in SL is the Euro! All land and extra features could now be paid with the Euro. We have signed partnerships with some of the world's leading designers and businesses to provide you, the users, with unique and constantly changing content! ((L$ will still be able to be used for in game - player created items, nothing more.))

What would my L$ be worth at that point?

EDIT: I meant to thank you for respecing my opinion, which is why I have included it in the quote.

Well, I suppose that'd depend on the Euro$ -> US$ exchange rate, wouldn't it? Paypal and Credit Cards have built-in mechanisms for exchange, I may add.

EDIT: N.P. - I know you're a decent guy, and your post is very contructive.

the L$ has real value only insofar as we all collectively continue to value the commodities inworld that it is used in exchange for, LL continues to control it's quantities and we keep paying 10$ every month for our 2000L$ stipend.

if anyone here offered me virtual money for RL services i'd scoff, but i might be willing to accept legal currencies from real countries.

philip might use anecdotes to describe the L$ as real money but LL will never put it in print and they will never barter it for USD directly.

what i foresee happening, if SL really catches on, is that it might begin incorporating RL currencies directly, sidestepping paypal and GOM altogether.

but anyway - event abuse... was it resolved to your satisfaction? i was excited to see if the thread would be locked by tonight.

For that matter, plenty of worldwide currencies have inflated and devalued. I would wager that L$ have outlasted at least a few 3rd world countries' currencies. Obviously currency depends on demand for trade, for sure; the risk of devaluation is different between the US$ and L$, but it doesn't mean the L$ has no value.


Well, this particular one was, for sure. This thread can go to bed.

Event abuse resolved? Yeah, right. We wish.