YAY! More event abuse!

Already I can point out at least three more events within the next few days that are similar to mine in that they are entirely dedicated to recruiting and hiring dancers.

Will these be allowed to stand? Do the Lindens have anything to say about this at all? It reflects very poorly on Linden Labs that the event rules which are so vague are also enforced completely arbitrarily, or perhaps on the whim of particular community members.

BTW - here was the IM that I received from Jill Linden. You will note that the original premise of this thread (that the event was abusive due to it's sexual nature) is NOT addressed:

*****

Jill Linden:
Hi, Im going over the events calendar and hiring events are suited for
the classifieds. They do not qualify as events. I am sending you a
notecard of the posting rules. Thank you

*****

I am hoping that the Lindens will step up and take notice of this issue. I believe it is a fair one to be addressed, but random and arbirtary deletion of events is NOT the answer.

Maximus,

I agree with you that the sexual connotations of your event, however questionable, are not the issue. Personally I don't like the new event rules anyway - I think it is a minefield and requires way too much babysitting to be able to properly police it, so you have situations where players like yourself are singled out, while many similar events go unchecked. Ultimately, the people attending events determine what is interesting to them. As long as you are not asking for financial support, I don't see why an audition/hiring event is not valid, but that's just me. Good luck.

Max,

I picked yours because it was the only one I happened to see. I have complained about other event listnings, will continue to complain about other event listenings, and have seen others do the same. Yours was not singled out, and I think that's pretty obvious, and you owe Jill an apology for wasting her time when the rules were pretty clear on what you were not allowed to post as an event.

And I think the rules are clear. No posting about SEX FOR SALE. Hiring escorts is precisely that. PERIOD.


Mole,

It saddens me that you have nothing better to do than defend this, when you are a talented builder. This is an ongoing issue, as Cristiano pointed out, and I will CONTINUE to point out event abuses as I see fit. Many suggestions have been made to LL to change the Event listing interface to solve this problem, and so it's clear we, as players need to keep bringing up examples of the abuse to prove it's a problem.


Both of you,

Your personal attacks against me are immature and unnecessary. Persist and I will be happy to report abuse about that.


@ Everyone,

I don't like escort services. I understand people are mature enough to decide whether or not they want to do that, maybe it's even a thrill for them. However, organized services, including pet auctions, are almost always completely exploitive of the new user. It is an insult and a degregation to people, usually women, to have them sell sex acts for literally what amounts to a few US$. I realize there may be some organized services that are less exploitive, and while I disagree with the concept, I respect their current right to do what they do.

I find it really sad, however, that many clubs must rely on escorts as a means to dwell and profit. If I remember correctly, Cannibus Cathedral banned escorts, and was THE MOST dwell winning club on the nights it had parties.

I am not defending it. Reread what I posted. What I am doing is getting sick of having to wade through these exact same events in the events window on the rare occasions I log on, then coming to the forums and seeing them all over again for the apparent reason of "pressuring" people to remove them, when a simple private message to a Linden would get the problem removed more efficiently and with less drama.



If this is an attempt to get changes made, and not get a single, individual listing removed from the Events listings let me suggest the following:

1. Include more examples, so you're not seen as singling someone out.
   
2. Post it in the form of a feature request, and in the feature requests forum.
   
3. Continue to do so in regular and highly visible intervals, complete with individual private messages to the exact same Linden for each individual event that violates the rules. The best way to get something changed is to email the CEO every time something occurs. If we did such a thing every time our camera got changed in edit mode, I guarantee edit mode would have the option of not having our camera move around within about three months.

As your post stands, here in the General forum, it reads as a public request to LL to remove an individual event from the listings, not as a public request for more options in the Event listing.

Mole,

You said this "doesn't directly concern us". I'd say that's a defense.

Feature suggestions are fine, as well, but when it comes to a public issue dealing with behavior of many members of the public, I believe it's appropriate to address it as a public matter.

Hiro,

<<It is an insult and a degregation to people, usually women, to have them sell sex acts for literally what amounts to a few US$. I realize there may be some organized services that are less exploitive,>>

Second life is not real. There is no hunger, no poverty, no food, no dependents - and therefore no exploitation.

If someone wants to sell their sexual services they are doing so not as a result of pressure but because they want to.

And moreover, probably the majority of those women are men.

Maximus,

To me, there is only one issue.

It's not about clubs, or selling sex or anything like that.

It's the fact that I look at the events listings less and less, because of the fact that it is full of spam. I look for events, and I have to wade through enough spam outside second life - I don't want to do the same inworld.

I have had to close email accounts because of spam. I don't want to lose the events listing for the same reason.

Disagree. So does Linden Lab (see: White Papers)
Second Life is no less real than ebay or Microsoft. Both provide virtual services that boil down to ones and zeros, both are very real.
Property in SL has real value.
People make real money on SL.
People start real relationships on SL.
People have their real hearts broken on SL.
People have real fun on SL.
People can be traumatized in SL.


Selador, I think this is a huge assumption. I would argue that a lot of noobies don't know how to make money and turn to this as an "easy" thing to do. And just because someone wants to do something doesn't mean his/her employer doesn't also exploit them. Exploitation is not forced labor, just cheap labor.


HA!!! Now, that's a heck of an interesting debate there.
Is it any less degrading then? heh

when all the important things to bitch about are covered, i'm glad to see we can always find something as pointless as this to fall back on.

Jauani, the discussion is whether this is a significant issue or not. You are begging the question.

we can make it significant. what we should do is drag maximus rebus into the forum as our sacrificial lamb. you can post a personal plea to him in one thread to entice forum furor, and i'll start getting nostalgic about how great SL was before the event lister which fundamentally ruined SL forever. then robin can lock the thread.

Heh.

Well, event lister is better than say, having 6 titles of events mentioned every 15 minutes with no searching features.

As for the sacrificial lamb - as I've said in this thread: I have posted about event abusers before, I will continue to. Other people have as well. The more visibility we give event abusers, the higher on the priority list LL may put fixing this.

are you of the opinion that this is way more significant than dealing with bugs, developing the game further, or keeping up with land demands. where would you really like LL employees to be spending thier time?

If I was breaking the "no sex for sale" rule then why was that not the issue that was raised by Jill Linden? The rule I allegedly broke was for creating a hiring/staffing event, which IS NOT prohibited under the current guidelines.

I pointed out to Jill the other event that was EXACTLY THE SAME IN NATURE. This event was not removed. And I owe her an apology? For enforcing an unwritten rule against me, but when I raise a similar complaint it is completely ignored?

No hiring/staffing events? Fine with me. But make it clear and enforce the rules across the board. Random enforcement of arbitrary guidelines is not the answer to the events' board problem, and being singled out and being denied a competitive advantage afforded to others is disgraceful to all of SL.

And BTW, I am not going to make a single Linden off any escort that I hire, other than increased dwell. My escorts are free to charge what they like and keep every Linden that they make. If you think this is exploitative, then that is your opinion, and mine is different.

But the issues of escorts and sex for sale are complete non-sequiturs. The real issue is that the event posting guidelines are vague and arbitrarily enforced at best.

We will see if the other hiring events (one scheduled for today) are deleted. They are clearly marked for any Linden to see, or for anyone reading this thread to ask for removal. It will become clear if these events remain that the (poorly written) rules are being randomly enforced.

Guess what, Max?

You're now on my do-not-help list.

Congrats.

Can't f***ing believe you justify your behavior. I'm going to IM Jill again now.

Goodnight.

I don't think there's any reason at this point to be bashing Maximus' Second Life. That isn't right. I think Max has an idea now that advertising in the Events calendar is innately a no-no. The problem is that Max doesn't feel his treatment here was fair because there are other events of the same calibur that aren't picked out. I agree; I looked at the event calendar, and there were some nasty advertisements in there. So, true to my ideals, I reported them. Max shouldn't have to justify his Second Life here, because it's his. The topic was about event content and justification of reporting events; I think we covered both, so let's move right along and make sure that we keep an eye on the event calendar so that we don't end up slandering one person when there's a bunch that are off-set.

nice - How am I going to get a job selling my ass now?? What is an aspiring 16 year old to do now? All I want is some action and some money for it and I can make my own decisions.

And Hiro (my hero) crusading for minors in SL saying we can make up our own minds and now saying that NOBODY can decide for themselves what they can or cannot choose to do,

I was looking at that event and thinking WOW! this is it, I could be an escort! For a good time Bangme Loveless!

It's a good thing tho that we have a crusader that will tell us all what is good for us because certainly nobody can truly think for themselves.

PS Im not 16 but I could have been... Im 14... just kidding Im 12... jk again... 18+ really

OH! I guess I'll have to get a job at Club Elite to help them continue game the dwell system! Looks like Im back in business!

Hiro,

Really...why do you care? It takes yours eyes a half second longer to scan past that event title in the listing? You're worried someone is selling virtual sex for virtual money? You insist others should share your beliefs and opinions? I still don't see where Max's post was against the rules. There was nothing sexually explicit about it. I see events for model searches, clubs seeking members, shop openings, club openings, etc constantly. Are there alot of bad events being posted? Sure are, but how do they cause you or anyone else any harm? Fight back by creating and hosting well thought out and fun events.

And you throw a fit because the guy defends himself and run off to cry to mommy?? Of course he is justifying his behavior, because you forced him to...

As Surreal said so well in her post, there was nothing sexually explicit about the post. Take a minute, breath deep, and don't sweat the very very small stuff. Unless folks are being intentionally cruel, disruptive or just plain a-holes, why worry about such a small thing as some folks having fun?

So, lemme get this straight...a new player, over the age of 18, goes to an event that's advertising for escorts and other mature activities. They participate, and thru the myriad of interactions that goes on, they find themselves in a compromising position. How is the event listing responsible for this? We are all over the age of consent here, and we make informed decisions as to what we do online...I fail to see how SL Mature Events, even the ones where 'prostitution' is involved, is abusive. This is cyberspace, we can plug out at any time.

As to the post following the proper guidelines of 'PG'...there's a point to be made for events not becoming a Help Wanted ad. But I don't see how a Mature event can say what happens in that Mature event without somehow violating the 'PG' code. I say we have a return of the Mature Events forum, where such posts can be made.

I find it very ironic that people automatically assume that Mature events must be regarded in an immature manner.

<tenFootPole>
And moreover, probably the majority of those women are men.
then perhaps the question is: does one want to encourage men to reinforce the "women as merely sexual objects" stereotype? does one want sl to be a place where people are seen as commodities?

There is no hunger, no poverty, no food, no dependents - and therefore no exploitation.
that doesn't follow logically. that's like saying there is also no smell, no taste, no tactile sensation in sl- and therefore there is no experience in sl. there are other routes to exploitation. money (e.g. food, land, healthcare etc) are reifications of social status and power. as long as there is social status and power, and a desire for such, there can be, and will be, exploitation.

last note
i personally don't have a problem with prostitution per se. adults should be allowed to do what they want among themseves (with in reason) and if it weren't stigmatized and otherwise socially frowned-upon, then it wouldn't be such a social problem. however, since it is stigmatized, it does breed exploitation.

Prostitution is legal in many countries.

in the US you can find escorts in the phone book.

It is also legal in the U.S. if you visit Nevada, with the exception of Clark and Washoe counties (where Las Vegas and Reno are located).

I know I'm taking this OT a bit, but my personal opinion is that prostitution should be legal and regulated throughout the U.S. There is no valid excuse for it being illegal other than someone's moral beliefs.

OK, back to the thread.

So, by supporting the stigmatizing of prostitution, the Lindens are guilty of breeding exploitation! Egad! O.O

This is a line of flawed logic that only works because of our irrational American sheep-like mentality. Just because someone belives something is immoral doesn't make it immoral. And just because someone is sexually immoral does not make sexuality immoral.

I think we need to stop imposing our beliefs on other people. Yes, there's a lot of tawdry and outright sluttish behavior on SL. There are also a lot of well-behaved people who have a myriad of other reasons for expressing sexuality on SL. Raising a mountain over an escort-ad molehill doesn't seem to help the situation, and does much to perpetuate the potential harm that can happen in-world.