New Pope: former Nazi

.....

I am Catholic. Thats mean =(

Mean? How?

I didn't write any of that stuff.

It's quite amusing to watch people who know next to nothing about church doctrine second guess 117 cardinals and a man handpicked by John Paul II himself. The fact that many of you call this new pope a Nazi serves only to further show how stupid some of you are. I'm a Catholic and hearing my pope being called a Nazi is insulting to say the least. You call him a Nazi? So basically you're condemning a man who was forced into Hitler Youth at the age of 14 and would have been executed for deserting had he not been found by the Americans first? Do you feel proud of yourself for judging someone for what he had no control over at age 14? You call him a Nazi when he pointedly stated that Israel and Jews were special in the eyes of the Lord in his book "God and the World" which he published in the year 2000? You call him a Nazi when Jewish leaders hailed and applauded in joy when he became the successor to John Paul II, to whom he served as a close advisor for 24 years? And when you don't call him a Nazi you call him ultra conservative. Perhaps you didn't know that being the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith required one to be somewhat if not entirely conservative? He's conservative because he won't approve of gay marriages and such? Are you Pope haters just bitching because you have nothing better to do? Or are you sorry excuses for Roman Catholic Christians who don't have faith in the head of the church, successor to St. Peter, in whom you should respect? Maybe you don't realize this because those of you who argue on this matter are too ignorant. The Catholic Church has never recognized gay marriages. Perhaps those of you who dislike the current pope should either become pope and do somethin about it or think before talking out of your ass.

Wow... just wow... Seriously. WOW.

Hear, hear! I'm not Roman Catholic, and have little to agree on with the Pope, but I agree with everything you say. My father forced me to join the Boy Scouts when I was 12, and I quit as soon as I could, talk about your evil fascist organizations...
I hear people claiming to be Roman Catholic, but complaining about this thing or that. Honestly, there will be genetically engineered kosher flying pigs shitting on our heads before there is ever a female Catholic priest or they approve of abortions. They need to just quit and be Unitarians or something if they are not happy within the Church.

Evil fascist organizations... lmao man

Oh dear,

Am I to understand that the new Pope is another who believes that the Zionists have been given a divine right to steal from, persecute, expel, and kill the palestinians? Because of what it says in an old book ?

It is a tragedy for the rational, secular world that these vicious, vengeful old religions with their self-serving, racially prejudiced priesthoods, have survived into modern times to spread injustice and threaten the safety of the peoples of the world.
It is a pity that Jesus was born into Judaism, because his beautiful new religion of love and tolerance ironically ended up giving the old religion and its prejudices a new lease of life.
And eventually gave Zionism a whole new batch of irrational supporters in the form of the US christian fundamentalists.

And DONT raise the convenient old cry of anti-semitism.
If Switzerland was doing all this same stuff.
If it was stealing the territory of palestinians, killing them with high-tech weapons, imprisoning them with huge walls, importing anyone faintly Swiss from any corner of the earth to take their olive groves, bull dozing the homes of the relatives of anyone even suspected of resisting, doing all this on someone else's money, and justifying it on the basis of religion. And screaming about other people's nuclear weapons while holding 200 nuclear warheads of their own in secret.
If the Swiss were doing all that, then I would be saying exactly the same things about them. And exactly the same things about their religion.

Its nothing to do with Jewishness. Its to do with my opinion of the actions taken, and of the reasons used to justify them. Many, many Jews are as horrified by all this as I am. But not enough of those who vote in Israel.

I had hoped that the new Pope would have opposed these war crimes and atrocities against palestinians. Looks like not.

Not to be a drama queen... but OOOOHHHHH WOW

Lindar and Nikolai - I'm duly impressed by the passion you both had in your posts, yet were (mainly) able to keep the post to the topic and not a flame fest.



i need a smoke after reading those two.

Israeli leaders praise new Pope despite his past ties to Nazis
04:42 PM EDT Apr 20
PETER ENAV



JERUSALEM (AP) - Israeli politicians and rabbis on Wednesday praised newly elected Pope Benedict XVI for his strong condemnations of anti-Semitism despite the pontiff's ties to the Nazi Party as a youth.

As a German, Benedict sets off alarm bells for many Israelis, whose memories of the Nazi murder of six million Jews remain painfully vivid. Many wondered whether he would embrace Jews as warmly as his predecessor, John Paul.

"There are good relations with him," Oded Ben-Hor, Israel's ambassador to the Vatican, told Army Radio. "Israel can certainly coexist with him. But the real test will come over the course of time."

Israelis widely admired the late Pope John Paul for his unstinting efforts to promote Jewish-Catholic reconciliation. John Paul won many Israeli hearts during a trip to the Holy Land in 2000 by apologizing for Roman Catholic wrongdoing over the centuries. He also was praised for promoting interfaith dialogue, establishing diplomatic relations with Israel and aiding Polish Jews during the Nazi era.

As a teen, the new Pope served in the Hitler Youth - compulsory for young Germans at the time - and during the Second World War was drafted into a German anti-aircraft unit, although he says he never fired a shot. While Benedict has been a leading voice in the church in battling anti-Semitism and fostering Jewish-Catholic relations, his past has raised suspicions in the Jewish state.

"White smoke, black past," said the headline in the mass circulation Yediot Ahronot. "From the Nazi youth movement to the Vatican."

Nonetheless, Jewish leaders said they were encouraged by the special interest the new Pope - the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger - has in coexistence.

"Though as a teenager he was a member of the Hitler Youth, all his life Cardinal Ratzinger has atoned for the fact," said Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, an American Jewish group that battles anti-Semitism. Foxman himself was saved during the Holocaust by his Polish nanny, who had him baptized and raised him as a Catholic, until his Jewish parents reclaimed him at the end of the war.

Moshe Zimmerman, a professor of German history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, played down the importance of the new Pope's membership in the Hitler Youth.

"He was 18 years old when the war ended, so everything that he had to do with the Nazi regime was as a very young man," he said. "I don't believe that there is any room for doubt that (the Pope) of today is very different than the days he belonged in the Hitler Youth."

Tel Aviv chief Rabbi Israeli Meir Lau - a Holocaust survivor and a former chief rabbi for Israeli Jews of European backgrounds - said his many meetings with Benedict while he was a cardinal have convinced him of the new Pope's good record on matters of concern to Israelis.

"The last meeting) was last year, in New York, in the Museum of Jewish Heritage of all places," Lau told Israel Army Radio. "There was a meeting of two or three rabbis with some 20 cardinals. . . . His entire speech was given over to a condemnation of anti-Semitism, in the strongest and most unambiguous terms."

Writer Zvi Gil, also a Holocaust survivor, said he expects Benedict to continue John Paul's favourable attitude toward Jews, precisely because of his German past.

"His attitude to Jews in Israel will to a very significant extent be influenced by that of his predecessor John Paul II, whose steps are well known to us," Gil told Army Radio. "And as a German I don't think he will want to move backward from these steps toward Israeli Jews."

A top Muslim leader, meanwhile, urged Benedict to follow John Paul's efforts to promote interfaith relations and resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"We hope that the new Pope will give the church more roles in trying to solve the problems that the world is facing," said Adnan Husseini, director of the Waqf, or Islamic Trust. "We hope that he will continue the policy of John Paul II, who opposed the wall around the Palestinian territories and called for peace between the two peoples."

I sympathize with you, really, I do. I posted earlier about the Pope being a "nazi" as he has been called, and about how stupid it is to expect a pope to take anything but a hardline conservative stance on things.

I think people are looking at this pope like they looked a John Paul II. He was as much of a political and diplomatic figure as Tony Blair. He was a well-respected head of state. I think most people out there are looking for someone to loosen the reigns on things such as gay marriages and abortions...I think that they are looking for someone who will allow priests to marry so that the Catholic Church doesn't get involved in altar boy scandals.

Me personally? I believe that this pope was put in place to fulfill prophecy and we are living in the end times. That's my opinion, however, and nothing more.

I'm sorry if I did or said anything to disrespect the Catholic Church or you. I know it's hard not to take personal, vicious attacks on someone that you admire personally. Good for you for standing up for yourself.

Thank you Angel. I was not aiming at anyone in particularly and I apologize if I offended or insulted you in any way.

Let's be honest, here. Most of the Palestinians were actually brought in by the British during the 1930's from Egypt and Trans-Jordan to try to balance the population and keep Jews from gaining a majority. As the descendants of fellow immigrants, they have no more nor fewer historical rights there than do the Jewish settlers, and by attacking Israeli civilians repeatedly and by supporting wars of aggression started by Israel's neighbour countries, have given up any claims of being the victims of aggression. As for the walls, they make perfect sense. If your neighbour repeatedly betrays the trust you place in them by coming onto your property and attacking your family, a wall is a kinder method of dealing with them than a bullet.

LOL...the only time I get offended on this board is when people call my posts ridiculous. Then t hey apologize, and all is well.

Religous issues are a manner of hot debtate. Isn't that why most people say don't talk about politics or religon unless you want a fight.

Catholocism in my opinion is misunderstood a lot. I wish I knew more about it myself.

I've been Roman Catholic all my life, went to Catholic private schools since pre-k and took a Theology class every year since 1st grade. I still don't know enough about Catholicism.

You know, guys, I would love for just five minutes to look out through the eyes of one of you committed followers of an organised religion, obedient to and believing the commandments of an ancient text and/or current leaders.

We live, I think, in totally different worlds.

In my world, it is a fundamental moral responsibility for each person to struggle his way through to deducing his own moral code and rules for living and respecting living beings.

The idea of handing over responsibility for my decisions and opinions on what is right or wrong to another person or to a book seems to me an utter betrayal of everything that matters.

Just because the authority you accept may claim to be benevolent, or divine, makes no difference in my eyes. If you follow anyone, and the result furthers injustice, inhumanity or discrimination in favor of particular groupings, then you are absolutely at fault.

You have simply replaced all the little individual acts of wrongdoing with one big act of wrongdoing. The act of accepting an authority not guided by principles of justice, equality and above all rationality. This was YOUR decision, and if inhumanity to others results, YOU are responsible. Only YOU can decide whether some source IS divine. That is the critical individual decision, and moment of supreme responsibility. Once let irrationality (like "these are the end days" in and terrible things can follow.

Please don't assume I am blind to spirituality, or Godless. I struggle towards Him alone. I glimpse him. I know Him. And He is NOTHING, NOTHING like jehovah (except in his worst moments lol).

The old testament shows us what religions were like back in the dark when it was dog eat dog, no holds barred, tribe against tribe. Every group had it own special god or gods, its own myths of unique divine support and partiality for them, its own divine promises of land and victory, its own revelation myths, carefully crafted by its priesthood to support and encourage their people. And enhance their own power over them. This was a time when human rights, war crimes, and cross-cultural justice was not even dreamed of.

Most of these old religions were not written and were forgotten. Judaism survived because of an unique combination of written records, the desperate embrace of a people trying to keep their identity intact through exile, and finally the elevation and dissemination of the book throughout the world, riding on the back of the fine new religion of Christianity.

Such old religions (actually highly intelligent social engineering) were appropriate for the times for which they were designed. They have no place in a world where the survival (and honor) of us all depends on us striving toward international harmony, peace, justice and the establishment of human rights for all.

The world (and the peace and happiness of our little children) is threatened (via the Middle East and religious conflict) by this talk of "end-times" and the inevitability of the imminent destruction of reality as we know it.

The people who have decided to put their personal belief systems and moralities under the control of such mad and destructive anti-reality doctrines bear a very heavy responsibility.

It is precisely because it feels so safe and comforting to belong, follow, and sink into ritual that these evils are so seductive.

I could point out where a similar abnegation of individual moral responsibilty lead the nazis. I'm really sorry, but the ARE definite parallels.

Does no-one else find it horrific that the leader of the most powerful nation on earth is making decisions that intimately affect the survival and happiness of our children ? WHEN...

...He openly claims that one of his fundamental assumptions is that reality-as-we-know-it will shortly be wiped out. Making the ordinary real-world welfare of those children irrelevant ? They'll never get to a normal future ? The whole world ?

And he WELCOMES this destruction ??????

This doesn't anger and frighten you ?
You WELCOME progress towards DESTRUCTION of known reality ?
For EVERYONE ??

And you think you're sane, benevolent, caring and responsible ?
Telling your kids this ? Encouraging Zionist aggression as a step towards it ?

I'm just horrified.

It is definitely a thought provoking concept ..


Widespread belief in a Religion that predicts the end of the World, could be a self fufilling prophesy.


Since the human race now has the ability to destroy itself rather quickly, the danger inherent is definitely something to consider.

Please don't pussy-foot around guys.

If you
WELCOME progress towards DESTRUCTION of known reality ? For EVERYONE ??

Please have the guts to say so without evasion.
Then the rest of us can finally recognise you as dangerous enemies of our children.

It is my understanding that the pre-Israeli state did something similiar when it lobbied the US and other Allied countries to set strict limits on immigration for displaced Jews after WWII, thus "encouraging" their settlement in what is now Israel, boosting the population there and increasing likelihood of a viable Jewish State. Many European Jews would have preferred to move to the US or England but could not do so due to these restricitve policies. Imagine the state of the Middle East now if most of the European Jewry would have been able to successfuly been able to move to the US...

Well... I'm not a catholic, but I would go to say that while valid, your ideas of what it is to be catholic might be exhaggerated.

The thing is that the catholic church maintains it's theological integrity via the prophecies and scriptures of old. They have a college that all cardinals attend in order to train them in the prophecies and scriptures... it's a very entrenched and developed church.

But I don't think.. well I KNOW.. that not every catholic follows the church's doctrinations. Heck, some don't even believe in the end of days and the second coming of christ.

Some are just christians, christened only as catholics. Some simply have faith in God and Jesus and all that stuff. Live by the teaches and the philosophical/moral lessons.

Though I do agree Lindar, that religion/spirituality is a very personal thing. I definitely agree that receiving spirituality from a dispenser is kind of deprecating the entire schpeel. And I think the minority (or majority?) of christians/catholics believe that the church and it's doctrine aren't the be all and end all of their spirituality.

Though I don't like the political affiliations and control the church still has... it's kind of creepy to think that "God loves everyone" ...

except blah, blah, and yadda yadda.

I'm sorry, but most of the people I have personally talked to seem to think its exciting to say the new Pope is a Nazi and that's the end of it. They don't have any idea as to what the Pope did beyond being in the Hitler Youth or deserting from the army. Most of the information they learn is second-hand anyways. So he was in the Hitler Youth? Can anyone tell me how that affected his decisions in the church? Does anyone know what he did in the past 20 years? 40? 50?

Hmmmm former Nazi or.......

I think they stopped listening as soon as you started telling them about their religion. Ultimately, you are not going to reconcile two views head-on where one view rests on the shoulders of empirical laws and the other one rests on the shoulders of faith. What you are saying does make sense, I'm not arguing against you; I'm just pointing out that you are not probably not going to change anyone or make these people listen to you when approaching them from a world view that they do not possess. The keys and the locks are not compatible.

Reality is the most precious thing a person owns and usually people are too jealous of theirs to readily embrace one that is opposed to their own just to communicate or remain civil. Usually the best way to change someone is to let them find the answer on their own or trick them into thinking they found the answer on their own.

Anyways... That was my moment of self-conceit. Please continue.

Unfuckingcanny!

If each of these people had found their religion for themselves as thinking adults, Chance, then you would be absolutely right, of course.

But many, perhaps the majority, had kin and social support group feed them these belief systems from the youngest age, with the implicit instruction that this was the truth, to be accepted without question.

Some come to make their own re-appraisal and reach their own decision as they grow to adulthood. But many do not.

If they accidentally reach a third paragraph before they switch off, they just might glimpse the real destination, or maybe the real origins and original motivations, of what they have accepted. The critical faculties of just a few might flicker into life.

Yep. I know. I'm a hopeless optimist. Gotta try though, haven't we ? For the sake of the children ? Its all beginning to get SERIOUS.

Maybe I'm giving the wrong impression. Loving, tolerant, forgiving un-prejudiced as-jesus-meant-it-to-be Christianity has a lot of my respect.

Many Catholics are true to that.

Its the maniacs who talk of prophecies, "end days" and who are trying to prod us toward a real catastrophe in the mistaken belief that it is actually a benign and desirable spiritual event. They scare and anger me. I'm surprised to learn here that Catholics (and cardinals and Pope) are among them.

Those who believe such things are suddenly, now, beginning to threaten all our children. At this point their beliefs stop being just their concern, and become ours.