I'm sick of building a nice house, then ...

Oh right. I forgot about the "confrom to Shiryu's expectations" clause

re: the replies to my post:

See what I mean about retarded monkeys?

Oh well. Discuss an issue, give a concrete idea and possible solution, and be shot down by morons. Welcome to "humanity". What a waste of time, both in SL and RL.

I agree with Shiryu that freedom does entail responsibilities that are both maintaining freedom but also ensuring that freedom does not become fuck-you hedonism which then makes un-freedom for your neighbours. That's what it is all about. Just plain consideration of others.

Few people screaming about their right to do what the fuck they want on their property ever give a thought in their tiny provincial methed-out minds about neighbourliness, or about community. These concepts are utterly alien to them, and I guess it's no accident, that they spend their days in pointless cubicles or other mass employment situations, drive to pick up fast food and shop at Walmart's, never talk to RL neighbours, then log in to the Internet and chat for hours on AOL with strangers. Community? What community? Community has utterly lost its connectivity to actual space.

So in SL, all of this surfaces, big time, and we get people fed on fast food working in cubicles all day who spend their evenings chatting on AOL suddenly faced with the awesome existential task of actually having to behave like a considerate neighbour. And they fail utterly.

Example: what happened in Stump. God, what a bunch of ugly-building fuckwads we have in Stump! I guess the ugly Sim name, which sounds like a sawed-off tree trunk, describes it!

Ok, to be fair, one guy has these giant mother-trucking...things... I dunno, they're cool, I even posrated him, but they just sort of don't seem to fit in a sim where some people are earnestly trying to go residential, because they are right next to Anshe's residential sim of Midge, hoping some of that "residentialness" will rub off.

But it's true, what happened is that this one guy built RIGHT OUT to the property line and BIG utterly blocking even the entrance to one of my houses. It was just impossible to even move around to the property except from one another side because he had the U-shape along with another big blocker. It was just play-time for these people, however, because one day their land was selling for an absurdly low price, but damn, I didn't get it, another day they had a gigantic castle on it, a third day no castle, whatever, it's SL....Anyway, it's all depressing, I don't even think to try to discuss these problems with the owners doing this, because they will only reply with a tirade of hate, and they'll be changing the next day anyway.

And...here I am putting down little houses by Barnesworth Anubis or the classic Goths by Tyra Valkyrie and some high-minded folk call it "clutter" and others say they "hate it" and still others say they think Lordfly's fabulous house is "ugly" and still others just wish it would all fade into the Linden sea...but go somewhere else -- and I do have that luxury --and all of the above finds ardent fans. Go know.

But the real prize goes to these Master-Builder Griefers next to Stump who made this GIGANTIC platform in the sky jutting off the mountain, ensuring that everyone's view is blocked out that way, and then to make it stay up, because God knows, there is such wicked gravity in SL, they put a huge freaking FOUNDATION under it, putting the ugliest textures they could find on same.

I'm telling you, the horror...My jaw dropped that day I saw on the one hand, Mr. Castle had built his wall right out to property line blocking a house entrance for me, since the house happened to be facing in his direction...then we had Mr. Foundation there up on the mountain...and any number of things in the sky and earth all around. Just when I think it can't get worse in SL...it does.

You know, I started to think maybe I should sell. But then I hunkered down there and made the coolest house-set up, you must see it. Well people have rented there, and they have been happy. So....there is hope for Stump yet...

You want to talk about a sense of "community" and then you post insult riddled drivel, lashing out on all directions like a guy caught in a swarm of imaginary insects? You have the most twisted, misguided sense of community of anyone I see posting here regularly.

You want to rail against "elitists" and "fuck-you hedonists", when you, yourself, are a shining example of both of those expressions. I don't know how you can't see that if you ever re-read your own posts.

That which I just read from you is the most "hedonistic" jumble of a warped sense of entitlement and self imagined victimhood I have ever heard from any SLer.

Why do you hate SL?

Since you have been here, all you have done is try to paint the most miserable picture of SL possible. You hated the existing player base, apparently the game designers too. You hate what a lot other people build, among several other aspects or groups.

Did you try to do this to The Sims Online too? By "this", I mean attack it. I heard you did, which would indicate a pattern. I don't know for sure one way or the other, beyond what you told me in Yahoo that night we spoke. With what you said to me then, and what I have heard about you and your time in TSO from others, I wouldn't be suprised. Your input is most welcome so that I may either dimiss this notion, or simply give up with you and realize that you are just a loud mouth no matter what the environ. This is a question, not an accusation.

So suggesting you be tolerant makes me a moron?

Well this particular retarded monkey/moron has had some concrete ideas and recommended some possible solutions about zoning in this thread . Maybe adding your thoughts there will encourage Linden Labs to create zoned area for those that want them and maintain free build areas for those that enjoy creating without restrictions.

Oh, and Oook Ook!

I'm the "guy" who "has these giant mother-trucking...things...I dunno, they're cool, I even posrated him, but they just don't seem to fit in a sim where some people are earnestly trying to go residential," on his parcel. Yeah. Me.

Some things:

First, when Prokofy's alt flew by and gave me a positive rating, he asked me if I'd be interested in building and landscaping for him. So I guess he was impressed at the time.

Second, I will put my builds in Stump or anywhere else up against Barnesworth Anubis, Tyra Valkyrie, Lordfly D., or anyone else in SL, anytime, in any terrain or condition. And, accounting for understandibly different tastes, my stuff will come out looking just fine. That's not an opinion, that's a demonstrable fact, and anyone who thinks differently is insane. I'm a good builder, and I take pride in that. It's all I have to offer to SL.

Third, when I was building my "giant mother-trucking things", Stump was still being bought out. Nearly all the parcels were empty, I was one of the first there. Midge hadn't been entirely bought out, either. There were no residential "neighborhoods." About all there was was a pretty-fair "dark and foreboding" vampire castle. Holding me to a different standard when I set the early standard is kind of...well...mystifying.

Fourth, Prokofy is right. Stump is chaotic and ugly, and is filled with builds that seem to compete with each other to "rise above" it all. I'm familiar with the other examples he gave, because all of these have happened on the one side of my parcel. And although I was careful not extend my builds beyond my parcel lines, there was quite an overhang from the build of the person Prokofy mentioned.

Concern for the aesthetic or territorial rights of neighbors in Stump seems to be missing. And I'm guilty myself. My "giant mother-trucking things" were soon buried by other builds. So I'm building a large zeppelin and a dirigible dock high in the sky to rise above it all. But what else is there to do, given that there is little meaningful dialogue with each other over these issues?

Fifth and on the other hand, I build differently than most other people in Second Life. I am here because I want to build differently. My "giant mother-trucking things" are actually "organic street lamps" or area lights as they might be constructed by persons without a necessarily-human perspective. Yes, you read that right. And I won't apologize for it; in a virtual world where there are few human limitations, I was reaching for a style that has few human limitations.

I'm sorry if that style does not match the "late 20th century, post-modern Vail-and-Aspen-resort-wannabe-suburban-residential" style of Stump or many sims in SL, but frankly, a box with windows is a box with windows is a box with windows. And a view. If I'm building ugly or unimaginatively, criticize me. If I'm building well and creatively, as Prokofy apparently thinks I am, and others have said, then what should be the center of architectural style in a place like Stump? Boxes for people who want to pretend they live in Colorado or Switzerland? Well, maybe so. But what about the rest of us, minority though we may be?

Nevertheless, I think Prokofy and Anshe and others bring up interesting issues that ought to continue to be discussed.

And anyone who wants to go to Stump and see all of this is welcome to. You can make up your own minds.

Oh, and btw, Prokofy, this isn't a "tirade of hate". You are free to come by anytime and discuss matters in Stump and my builds. You can tell me that my builds are bizarre and out of place if I can tell you that your well-built, technically-wonderful houses are conventional and a bit boring.

edited for typos

Ok, Prokofy, I'll bite. Am I a methed-out provincial as well as retarded monkey/moron for suggesting that this whole community thing would work better if people were more tolerant.

For the record, I think you have some interesting ideas, but they get pretty lost in the insults.

I believe that there should be places for people who want to build according to some guidelines. But I always want to see places for people to build with complete freedom. I think SL can have both.

I understand your desire to make your SecondLife experience about creating attractive neighborhood-type areas. You need better tools to accomplish this. I will do whatever I can to help ecourage LindenLabs to develop these tools, but in the meantime, most of SecondLife _is_ a free build zone. You enjoy that freedom. Let others enjoy that freedom, too.

If this still sounds to you like I'm saying "fuck-you" and being selfishly hedonistic, I apologize. It's just that I find SecondLife to be an ever-changing landscape that can surprise, amaze, challenge and even disgust me. It's unpredictable and sometimes disconcerting. The best way I have found to handle it is to be tolerant.

I don't recommend tolerance from the lofty height of someone who's above it all, I suggest it to you as one soldier in the trenches to another. It's advice I give myself, daily. Sometimes reading the forum, it's advice I remind myself of every few minutes

So be cool, don't sweat the small stuff, and lets all work toward getting viable zoning tools in SecondLife so people can create the type of communities they want to live their virtual lives in.

That seems to be what they are saying Bel, tolerance and patience equals <insert random or hackneyed assumptions and insults here>...

I can't tell you how many times I see builds come and go that may not necessarily be pleasing to MY sense of what is a nice build. I let it go though. I will certainly help them with any questions the may have. I will not call them derogatory names. To do so, in my mind, would completely negate any credibilty I possess.

I have successfully waited out many, many people over the months. "Ugly" builds usually don't last too terribly long. It's usually someone new, who is learning the toolset, or an impatient person. The latter tend to move a lot, so they usually disappear as well.

What's immensely ironic to me is that Prokofy wants to portray a good deal of SLers as fast-food eating, Walmart shoppers, when he is so damned impatient himself. Talk about a "fast-food", instant gratification mentality.

I fully admit that I speak only from my own experience, and that my own experience is limited.

And I'm not bashing everyone near where we used to live. Thing is, I don't even explore much past the house, really, because as soon as I fly off the property, I lag into oblivion. You -know- my issues with flying, Prokofy, so don't act all innocent. :) I also have draw distance turned down to its minimum, so if something isn't RIGHT next to me, I don't even see it. The first time you showed me the Furness property, I saw nothing but grey clouds in every direction. :) I thought the area was void! It took me a long time to even realize that the sim to the North was that place we hung out so long ago. So. Am I unadventurous? A slave to bad hardware? You decide! :)

Anyway, the SL environment -does- change all the time. And it should. I can't tell you how long we'll even stay where we are now. Only time will tell. :D

Come, join one of 4 existing Chung-zoned sims! Why put up with crap if you can live a better Second Life?

My favorite part was Prok's condescencion toward people who sit in cubicles at work or pick up fast food. Of course, it's no wonder, after his tiny-minded provincial neighbors' refusal to share their meth. God only knows how he'll maintain the daily word count of his polemics.

Prokofy,

I liked your community in Ravenglass. Very foresty, and very well in theme. Barnesworth Anubis has some great builds. However, I do not understand thepost you made.

I had to go visit Stump to see these "horrors" you speak of, and I go there to see some very unique and interesting architecture , not to mention the beautiful Villa Italiano with its swimming pool is an absolutely gorgeous build. The Egyptian prefabs are very unique and beautiful in their own way, definitely more unique than the typical box house. The gothic castle in itself is unique and nothing of the monstrosity you described it as. To me, your build stands out. What is wrong with unique and exotic builds that draw from different cultures?

I understand what people are saying now, I mean cmon, Stump has very cool architecture. Just as someone who recently entered the forum fray, I had to review what you said, and there is definite fallacy there.

Athel, if you read my most carefully, you could see I was talking about the edge of Stump that borders on Midge, where Anshe's planned and zoned community is. That's on the opposite side of where you are looking -- there isn't a fallacy, we're just not looking at the same parts at the same time.

I am not talking about the Egyptian pre-fabs at all -- they are at the other end of the sim, and they are OK.

I am not talking about THAT gothic castle on the rocks which is very competent and nice to look at.

I do *not* have a thing against unique builds that draw from different cultures.

Coming up the hill, you see a very exotic build that has wild giant plants and obtrusive sidewalks and a giant vehicle up in the air that is bulky and snub-nosed and hard to look at for long after your initial surprise and marvel. But like I said, I actually *like* that build and even pos-rated that builder because it is innovative and very clever. It's just that it becomes a bit overwhelming and those underneath it and around it who opted for a residential build are now likely going to move or resign themselves to exotic and overwhelming.

The "build" that I did isn't a build, but just a typical Victorian or whatever prefab that people like who rent there, and that's what they request to be put up -- we allow people to request and put in whatever pre-fab they wish, within reason. And since in Midge, there were the exact same style of prefabs by the exact same architect, it's hard to accuse me of interrupting Stump's, er, "elegance" by some prefab at one extreme end.

I don't have any more Barnesworth Anubis houses there and haven't for week, they don't fit in.

And the two most objectionable builds that prompted me to say "horror":

1) One of them is GONE already, after first completely blocking entry to a Barnes house before -- I mentioned that in my post

2) The other is on the next sim over, maybe you can't even see it due to the mist.

The "horror" is in one place, at one angle, and for one build, at a time in the past -- SL changes daily. The whole sim, whatever the various competencies or interests of its various builds, is not really laid out well, but it slopes and it's not people's fault really if they buy a plot a land and try to build without any notion of all of what is coming next as as to fit.

It's funny how that post seemed to bother some people, and boy did they get mad. One person got so mad they came in the game, enlisted me in conversation about how hurt they were, started a long winding convo, which I finally tried to fend off because I was busy, then announced that I "hurt Second Life" and that he was publishing the "interview" in his blog. LOL. I got a good laugh out of that one -- because I don't say anything different on the blog or the interview or here that I would say in-game. It is a violation of the TOS to do that, of course, copying people's convos and trying to goad them into revealing their RL details, etc. but he won't get an AR from me.

Look, Kim and everybody else who is getting all upset. I shop at Walmart's -- indeed, I look forward to driving out of my boutique-and-deli-ridden New York City landscape toward Connecticut or New Jersey where I can finally get to some spacious Walmart's or Sam's Price Clubs where I can get one of those hefty shopping carts and go wild buying gigantic boxes of Cheerios. I often work in cubicles, and I even decorate them with Dilbert cartoons and pictures of my family and little Post-it holders made out of recycled roach clips-- doesn't everybody?. I buy fast food, but usually at Burger King, my preferred rapid victuals emporium. I even had to subscribe to AOL for a time when I was trying to re-download my regular ISP's software after a crash. I don't take meth, fortunately, but I was born and grew up in the deepest sort of provinces. Look, I watch "Roseanne" -- and not the new Roseanne where she gets all pornographic, but the old Roseanne!

So I speak from VAST experience. When I speak of these things, I am not condescending, I am *describing*. It's *description*. So often all you people don't understand the difference? If you are bristling and taking umbrage...could it be that the shoe fits? I know it does for me. I am *reporting*.

I know Europeans in particular love to poke fun at American mass culture (when they aren't unconsciously participating in it) so that post was really to make sure they woke up off their "wrong" time zones and started firing flames at me -- Charlotte, where are you???

The participation in mass consumerism and mass culture is a reality. It's our real lives. Our real fictitious lives. For some people, Second Life makes it possible for them to have a more real life than they have "on the outside" in that mass, false culture that leaves them dejected and depleted.

Bel, I wouldn't put you in the category of the selfish or the fuck-you hedonistic.

We all know what it's like to see the day a sim is born, how beautiful it is, to wait to see what will happen in this new world. There are grand sweeping majestic cliffs or breathtaking sunsets or awesome views. You watch for a few days...then someone comes along and buys a chopped-up chunk of it and slaps up a pre-fab that looks like if you blew on it, it might blow away, and then sticks up a giant spinning neon sign announcing their kewl store that sells, I dunno, skins that look like roadkill.

If you so much as asking them about the spinning sign or the neon lights shedding for miles or anything of the kind, they get completely crazy and accuse you of oppressing them. OK, fine. I'm not impatient, I wait, or I sell, it's not a problem. Let someone else enjoy the spinning signs instead of me.

I don't know why it is so hard to get across the idea of what constitutes fuck-you hedonism -- people always prefer to take offense and protect what they think is their own and general free expression and don't wish to see what I mean is the creation of unfreedom for others. It's usually clubs, building gigantic structures lagging entire sims, usually on a tiny parcel that can't really support the structure visually, even if the prims are squeaked out. Most people know what it means to live next to such heedlessness, of people drawing way more than their share of the CPU. So it's time to stop feigning that it's all about your First Amendment principles and see what you can do about encouraging the Lindens to zone by a) labeling sims -- even just a label can help steer people and b) making people charge for scripted objects on their parcels that lag the entire sim.



Like I said, there is nothing insulting about talking about Walmart or fast food. As for tiny provincial methed out minds. I guess you have never had to spend any quality time with them on your sim, or you would know *exactly* what I'm talking about.

I don't hate SL, I spend a lot of money and time on SL. I'm sorry if I don't get all dewey-eyed about the Lindens' latest feted projects and players -- but dissidents are needed in any free society. I don't have any sense of entitlement because I don't ask the Lindens or any player to do anything for me whatsoever other than to keep the servers running and to not block my parcel's entrance, thank you very much.

Um, it's some kind of bad thing to have a "pattern" of critical commentary on online games? That's a healthy thing, they need a lot less adulatory coverage from all their fanboyz.

I understand your allusion to TSO here now involves some crazy rumour that I took EA to court, or "forced Will Wright from his own game" or some other crock of shit. I think you've been reading the Second Life Herald too long. I never took EA to court, never complained to them in any kind of systematic way, and was never banned from the game -- I still have accounts there and I even just got my Mystic Tree in Alphaville. I was banned once a long time ago for three days for the forums -- but wasn't everybody? And some Sim Shadow Government leader once set me up to swear at another player and call him something like an "ugly fuck" because he proposed to and married my sim while I was busy and just absent-mindedly clicking on stuff, and that got one of my sims banned for a day or something, but so what? I am a member in good standing in TSO and proud of it -- there are actually many positive features of that game that are missing in SL. No, I am not Will Wright's estranged son (he doesn't have a son) nor am I am anything to Will Wright except a balloon buddy on an account that got cancelled anyway, oh well LOL. I once criticized his sim in a blog becauase he gave a balloon to the SSG overlord Mia Wallace, but that was about a clan warfare in TSO, a satire really, and surely did NOT drive Will Wright's sim from the game, his sims are still there, and if anything, it is EA.com that "repurposed" Will Wright from Maxis and put him on other assignments, but I don't follow game dev politics so I don't know the latest on that. SLH is filled with silly rumours, including that story they ran on a slow news day about my Nubian princess LOL.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1585741612/ref=pd_sim_b_1/103-0326070-8492647?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

Is it just me or is this just feel like way too much information?

please, make it stop.

Prok, I didn't post because I was upset. I just posted to poke fun at how you habitually underminine the credibility of any valid points you may have by insulting and antagonizing people. It's amusing to watch, in the same post in which you gloat about hurting people's feelings, you behaving as if anyone ought to care about your opinions.

Aside from that, you're right, though: someone in your SL neighborhood has the inability to cope with a community that doesn't conform to the cliches of American mass culture. You have the ethos of a suburban crusader who gets their panties in a bunch if the neighbors don't pull all the dandelions from their lawns. You know, the kind of person who attends city council meeting after city council meeting, redundantly and passionately presenting a proposal intended to outline and enforce what colors the neighbors may paint their houses.

lighten up

All of you.

Come build in Baku

Gee whiz, guys, do I hafta go back and edit a line of winky emoticons into my post so you'll know it's light? I know Prok inworld and I even built some stuff for him, and I told him a while ago I wanted to spar with him on the forums. There isn't a fire that needs putting out here. Go rescue a kitten from a tree or something.

Well, as long as it's CONSENSUAL bickering. :o

(I'm a Libra. Me no liek teh fightng.)

Kim makes cool bugs! This is a forum debate! It's allowed among consenting debates.



Well, you maybe didn't post that you were upset, but you used the word "condescending" and that gave me an opportunity to explore the angst of some others who took umbrage. "Tiny-minded methed-out provincials" is a phrase that involves some clarification to the word "provincials" which may or may not be perjorative. "Tiny-minded" is well understood, I would hope, to mean people intolerant of gays or anti-war opinion or anything beyond their mowed lawns? I dunno, YOU know what I mean. "Methed-out" is an effort to reflect the scourge of the American midlands, the literal drug addiction and the general behaviour types that can come from drugs, alcoholism, and just a general poor intrauterine environment at various crucial stages of fetal development. It manifests in being unable to put a thought together, to make distinctions among concepts, to be short-tempered or unable to see the larger picture, etc.

I would think that tiny-minded methed-out provincials wouldn't be reading this forum, since reading can be a challenge for them, but if someone is say, just tiny-minded and living in the provinces but NOT on meth, well please understand that I have all the tolerance in the world for you, but as soon as you take meth, then my patience with you ends LOL.

It's funny you should liken me to some kind of dandelion-puller in the suburbs. I could care less about dandelions, let them grow. I'm not in the suburbs. I don't get on Nazi building commissions and councils. Don't be silly. Try to make these distinctions -- I am advocating on behalf of people who want residential areas. They don't want to be shot at, to have particles put in their faces, to have ugly buildings and spinning crap in the sky, to have the lag induced by clubs, etc. etc. These are normal things, and you want them for yourself in your own SL sim. That doesn't make me some tight-assed zoning freak. It means that I advocate creating circumstances where ALL can enjoy their SL rights and liberties instead of A FEW creating UNFREEDOM for the many with their antics. Can you make this distinction?