I'm sick of building a nice house, then ...

Chip - I guess that I don't accept that. Having grown up in the Northeast in very rural areas, I was surrounded by space. And as a child I had no real property line that were mine at all but I had a sense of entitlement.. I guess... that others may not have. But I still have that sense and choose to live both my RL and SL within what I consider an environment I can count on to be stable and somewhat the same from day to day. CAn we agree to disagree? I would be happy with that.

Wow. This is actually really interesting. I mostly grew up in urban areas (Boston area and then New York). I also have a REALLY large family. These two factors I think contribute to me having a really laid back attitude about boundaries. I simply accept that people in close proximity to me are going to be doing their own thing. Maybe some grafitti on the first floor, or a rock band upstairs, or a stadium going up next door. I find the variety really interesting and rich in SL as well as RL. Even if the builds are not up to snuff.

Don't take this as a criticism as your perspective is as valid as mine. I just think it's interesting how our backgrounds shaped our views on SL boundaries.

This post reminds me of a part of an email I got today from my husband (who works as a traffic engineer in the public works department of our local county): "Lots of fun here, dealing with angry people. It's too bad when a person lives next to a jerk. I am dealing with one problem, where a person has a jerk for a neighbor, and there is nothing that the County can do, since the jerk is not breaking any laws... The citizen is really distraught, but there is nothing that we can do to rectify the situation."

I also remember a former co-worker of my husband's who had moved to the Northwest from Philadelphia. He had his house built on 20 acres of rural property in the northern Idaho panhandle; for the benefit of anybody who doesn't live in the US, I'll note that this part of the country is mainly filled with trees, elk, deer, moose, a few bears, more trees, and the occasional cow. This guy once said to my husband, "I can still hear a neighbor's dog barking at night."

I suppose I don't really have anything useful to add to this thread. The Lindens seem to want us to find a way to get along with our sim neighbors in a similar fashion to the way we all have to get along with our RL neighbors. However, at least in RL, we have zoning. Am I advocating zoning in SL? I don't know. Maybe it would solve some of these problems, but you'll never be able to completely solve the problem of having a jerk for a neighbor.

In RL, we don't just have zoning - we usually move into houses that are already built, either new or pre-owned. In RL, we just don't choose what we live in other than from the selection of buildings which already exist.

OMG I couldn't agree with you more. The fact that everyone is taking one side here is LAME. Who are you people to tell others their build is ugly?? The SL home builders association? It has come up before. If you are going to complain about your view you really need to purchase the land that your view is included in.

The forums are no place to complain about the building skills of others.

Especially the starter of this thread. I'm sorry that everyone can't live up to your standards of building. I'm sorry that my plywood unfinished build is ruining your precious view. You know what I have to say about that?

Well I can't or this thread would be closed or I'd be banned from the forums. But you can tell me how you'd like my build to look if you pay for my land. Otherwise suggestions are welcome , but only ones that don't involve telling me how to build on MY land. Community goes both ways and is not just one sided. Your precious view is not nearly as important as my freedom to build what I want on my land.

The fact that people are consoling someone for their view being disrupted!?! What about the poor person who is still learning to build or is being told their build is ugly??

Oh Nolan, I had glanced at this statement when the thread was opened. Then I thought about it and I realized, I wouldn't want that lot in a bubble atmosphere.

I like being able to look around and see my neighbors. I hated that isolated feeling of TSO and not being able to walk to my neighbors lot without teleporting over.

So I guess in light of this, I can deal with my neighbors build, don't you think?

nope but i'ma script it so it can.

I find it helps to buy waterfront property and make it so that your property faces the water. People can build ugly crap next to you and behind you, but they have to go all the way across the river (or lake) to build any ugly crap in front of you.

No criticism taken Aimee - I totally agree with what you are talking about. I know that there are varied perspectives on what is comfortable environment. I feel unrepresented in SL though - mostly because of the lack of any attempt to contain sprawl. One persons restriction is another persons protection.

I have always welcomed the voter controlled protections that have been placed on property here in Vermont, USA. The rural quality is valued above the push toward urbanization. Some towns have 'protections' that allow only 1 dwelling per 10 acres.
There is a group in the state - the Land Conservation Group - that buys farms from farmers allowing them to continue to farm the land - and that land can NEVER be sold for development. I look for areas that have these kinds of guarantees of open space - without open space, for me, a part of me dies. SO, SL is really not for folks like me -- I accept that and decided to give up land owning. Why play a losing game? AND I don't want to take the money based route of buying my own island - that whole idea loses any sort of community spirit. Yes I could form a group... I could get together with people and buy land... but one of the problems for me is that I am somewhat of an introvert.

I've always thought telehubs were a rubbish idea from the beginning. Clearly the capability exists to "teleport directly" (think of your "home" teleport) , the only purpose they (telehubs) serve is to increase the value of land around them. Personally, I hate using telehubs, I do my best to get a "personal teleport" from someone else simply so I can AVOID telehub areas.

Of course, that has little to do with the Arsehole That Builds a Giant Wang next to my property (or does it?) ... There is no regulation of building. Sometimes that's good thing, sometimes it's not. Sadly, not everyone agrees on aesthetics. Obviously, it's pointless to try to "categorise" people and how they build, so you can't limit things easily. Really you need your own separate space. A multiverse of metaverses. Supposedly, that leads to isolation and antisocial behavior. I'm not sure I agree.

--Jack Lambert

Ooooh you seem SO anxious to receive suggestions...



"freedom" normally comes with responsibility. And in second life responsibility comes in the form of reputation and other people opinion on what you do.
Do you have the right to build whatever you want on your land? Of course you do.
Do your neightbors have the right to loathe it, comment negatively on it, neg rate you for it? Of course they do.
Do other people have the right to "console" them or disagree with them depending on their personal opinion? Of course they do.
And if you come here all proud of your "freedom" without an hint of humility shouting againt those that are just exercisig their entitlement to an opinion on what you do (and should take responsibility on) you are not gonna attract many sympathies.
Maybe someone should understand that the best way to learn building is to go to their neightbors and ask for advice and help.

YES.

As a builder, I prefer recieving both positive and negative feedback. I build on my land the way I want, but I am COMPLETELY open to the feedback of others, as long as it's given in a productive way. "WTF is this" is not productive, obviously, but I do get that from time to time as well. And I am as nice as possible to those people, because yelling doesn't help anyone, especially when it comes to "defending" something you've made.

I mean, if someone tells me my build is ugly, who am I to yell at them? Everyone has different tastes. And if it turns out that they're a better builder than I am, I ask for advice. I don't understand people who get all bent out of shape when anyone says anything even remotely negative about their build. Part of creating things, -anything-, is hearing things from other people that you don't necessarily want to hear. Not everyone is going to like what you make. Some people -will- like what you make, but will also have suggestions. If you aren't open to suggestions and feedback of ALL sorts, then how are you bettering yourself -or- the community?

A wounded artist?

Only those that are unsure of their abilities get defensive. And if you're unsure of your abilities, then you -should- be asking for help, not shooting at people with push guns.

*Runs off crying* Meanie!

o_o ......

I have to laugh at some of the posts here. They are all so subjective, and show just what a hilariously subjective thing SL is most of the time, with so many variables and chaos at work.

Char Char, I have one word for you: rent. Rent the view, and if the view changes, then move to a new rented view. It's great. We keep supplying alternatives. Views don't stick, unless you make them yourself, and for that, you have to own under them. And in SL, with all the pernicious variables, it helps to own about 4 sims around them, too, to really, really secure what is going on because all it takes is one idiot on 16 sqm with a lot of malice to mess it up for everyone within 4 sims.

I do concern myself mightily with these issues running rental homes. And people who tell you to "go buy a private island" are forgetting the social nature of SL, and the problems of islands and service to them that have been reiterated in these forums. And people who tell you to "go buy a sim" have their heads up their asses. You'd have to buy 4 sims to preserve the view on one, or at least 2, with one and the rest coming from parts of the other 4 surrounding, and frankly, 16 would be a helpful buffer. People still need the flatlands and geographical representations, they don't really want to live in the sky, as geeky and kewl as that seems to some. Those that want that kind of experience make it, but many people just want little houses with picket fences, and God Bless 'Em.

I won't go in detail about some of the contradictions in some of the statements here I know about from private in-world convos, but let us go through a few:

Char, I was flying by the other day to see Kurohyu's property on the waterfront there and I saw you built a low, long, ugly mall with corrugated iron rusted siding as the texture. Now, geez, who's talking about ugly builds? I don't mind that kind of mall, works for me, some people like the weatherbeaten look, but hey, get a grip on how subjective the ugly build thing is. You can put up textures of trees or sky with a picture on your side and clear tiles on the back out of consideration of your neighbours, but I always think such scrim looks fake at some level unless it is really done well and it rarely is.

Nikolai, since you're talking about your experience in my rentals on two different sims, I could point out that your experience of your sim at a give moment is just your experience. It may have seemed flat and dead and dull and full of horridly predictable suburbanites (well, at least, one, next door), but it wasn't that way for others, and in fact if you come up just 4 parcels you are in Jai-Town where the people tend to be far more interesting and wierd and where there have been events like yard sales.

I've seen all kinds of interesting people on all of those sims in that area, even just a few squares to the right or left of where you are. So often people's experience of SL really gets zoomed in to their immediate squares like on some giant game board. Just 2 squares away from you in the next sim, or two squares above you on the same sim, is a thriving bustling life with the fishing game, boardwalk, stores, people in houses, lots of socialization. They must not be your kind of people in terms of taste, builds, etc. but they live their lives, merely one square away from you, and you are completely heedless of them. So much depends on the time of day you log in on as well. And you move away, and the next day, somebody moves in next door who has an interesting build. And so forth and so on.

SL is about change. It is constantly changing. If you don't like the weather, wait five minutes, and it will change. I constantly am amazed at the ecology of sims. I put up Lordfly's house in one sim, and a few neighbors declare it's the devil's spawn. I put up a nice boxy comfortable house with a spacious porch in another sim, and people declare it an eyesore and praise me for putting out Lordfly's originals and prefabs. I put up Victorian Gothic in one place and it rents in a heartbeat. I put it in another place and people scream that it has a stupid idiotic green fake lawn attached to it. Go know. People can just pick what they want.

The way to get more secure views is to make communities. Charlotte understands just how hard and expensive and time-consuming that is by attempting Cass. It really is an awful lot of work and few people really grasp what goes into it. I have only a glimpse of it myself.

In order to have the kind of experience Charlotte is talking about, where somebody doesn't ruin your day with their ugly spinning advertisement over their stupid store or their ugly big blocky build, or their Lordly when you wanted Tyra Valkyrie, you need planned and zoned residential communities. We've all talked about that incessantly. You can wait for the Lindens. Or you can try to make one with a few like-minded people. Or you can set out a few sketched ideas as I have done and hope people make it themselves.

*pulls my head out of my butt long enough to point out that private sims are surrounded by WATER*

Being driven out of pleasant areas by crappy builds has happened to me twice in the past month. First, in Stump. Then, in Eldora. In both cases, I had built small, Japanese-inspired homes. Places to relax for me and a few friends. Very pleasing aesthetically (many people said so). And, in both cases, someone moved in, not just in the same sim, but RIGHT NEXT DOOR, and built buildings that were 3 to 4 times the height of my 2-story dwellings. And both were ugly builds, IMO. Both put giant walls right at the property line. I'd open a window and, boom, wall. Both of them were assholes about it when asked, too. At first, they seemed like they'd talk, but when it got right down to it, they were all, "Oh FUCK YOU! It's MY LAND, and I'll DO WHAT I WANT!".

I've also had a fairly positive experience with a group of friends in Eldora. Good folks, all of them, and they're trying to make SL an enjoyable experience for all involved as much as is possible. But it's taken them a bunch of time and L$ to buy up a huge chunk of a sim just to TRY to have things work out. It's sickening that they have to go to that extreme. But, I wish them luck.

So I've sold out completely. I've actually made a few USD on my SL experience. I pre-paid for 3 months, so now I'm basically just soaking up stipend (which I'll sell on IGE or GOM to get a few more bucks) until my account expires.

I suggest sim-wide zoning be incorporated into release 1.61 or 1.7 or whatever. The landowners have a new tab in the About Land... window: zoning preferences. They choose between a few choices, maybe "none", "residential, under 10 meters tall", "residential, under 30 meters tall", "residential, no limits", "mixed res/business", "business", etc. Whatever option has the most votes at the current moment is the current zoning policy for the sim. Everyone can vote. You can change your mind at any time, hence the zoning can change at any time. If your sim doesn't fit your zoning preference and you don't like it, you sell out and find one that does. Hey, it's better than the stupid, "Go buy yourself an island!" suggestion. Who wants to pay $200/mo for a fucking game?!

SL is an incredible technology. I enjoyed working with it. The problem is, it's been given to retarded monkeys.

So basically, if I buy land and build a house and then 20 casinos move in, I should have to move my house? Why? I don't have a problem living next to 20 casinos, why should there be a system where they can vote me out.

Oh, you misunderstand.

The voting doesn't kick anyone out. It places simple limits on building size and density (like <20m tall, etc.), and activity (based on traffic? Don't quite have the details). If the majority of sim residents preferred "business" zoning, then that's what's active at that time. You wouldn't have to move if you didn't want to. You could stay right there, in close proximity to your tringo(I guess it's (tm) now, eh?) and "life-like genitalia!" habits.

But, for people who want a nice sim not full of casinos, sex shops, and clubs, they could all buy their parcels, select the appropriate zoning preference, and a casino/club/sex shop couldn't move in.

Ook Ook!

Hehe...I guess you could say that the same problem with the planet earth.

For the record, people do things I dislike ALL the time. They sometimes even do those things in SecondLife. My general strategy is to ignore it, if at all possible. Apparently your strategy is to publicly rant about it.

Your rant, btw, falls under the category of things that I dont like. In the past, I've ignored it. But today, I'm going to take a page from your book, and, well, rant.

[rant] You are free to do what you want on your land, and the PRICE of that freedom is that other people do what they want on their own land. Everyone loves the freedom and no one wants to pay the price.

To make an aesthetically homogenous environment, LL could have chosen to limit in-world content to a review process. Great for the professional artists who would have no problem submitting their stuff for approval. Bad for the amateurs just learning or the people who are turned off by an "approval process". The goal of SL is not to create an aesthetically pleasing environment. The goal is to provide a creative platform for residents to create. Period.

You got to build your japanese-inspired homes without getting anyone's approval, yea-say, or going through any sort of red-tape. You just came up with the idea and started building. No Linden Lab employee was consulted. No blueprints filed with a bureaucratic agency. No HOA to deal with. Thats a pretty cool deal for a shared 3D environment. Unfortunately, just because you are the first person in an area doesn't give you the right to then deprive later builders of building with the same freedom. You can offer feedback, and they can take or reject it.

Over and over again, people come into SL enjoy the unique freedom of doing whatever they want, and then turn around and try to lessen that experience for someone newer.
They get this : Idea --> Build It.
And then turn around and want to turn it into this : Newcomer Idea --> Existing Resident Approval --> Build it

YOU ARE NOT BUYING THE VIEW, YOU ARE BUYING THE EXPERIENCE!

The freedom to do as you please costs! The price is paid in tolerance. It's a price I pay gladly. [/rant]

To those that are unhappy with "ugly" builds, I sympathize, I genuinely do. But, honestly, thats why tolerance is such an easy word to say and such a difficult one to practice. It's HARD being tolerant of what you don't like. But be tolerant anyway. Please!

BRAVO! That's the best I've ever heard anyone boil down the heart of the issue. You rock Bel.

Let's get some more clubel franchises up-and-dancing! Now that will be a real EXPERIENCE. Look how well clubel already integrates into a certain preexisting SL environment:



Isn't that fab?

I'm for more zoned sims, but also for more non-zoned sims. Maybe it'll be a revival of the ol' "themed communities" idea come 2005-2006. Heck, I love the diversity in here so much.

As far as democratic zoning goes, do majority landowners have majority sway? That is to say, if you own 65% of the sim, could you always bend the rest of the Residents in that sim to your iron-fisted yet fuzzy-gloved will? I'd imagine one could be a serious PITA and rotate zoning schemes every day. Then again, that might make for a compelling experiment to see how well some people deal with the adaptations of accelerative thrust.

Then again, it might be easier for some just to sing "Raining Blood" . . .

Trapped in purgatory
A lifeless object, alive
Awaiting reprisal
Death will be their acquisition

I mean, c'mon, aren't those lyrics just SOOO appropriate?

but she forgot a little detail. Everyone loves the freedom but doesnt want to take the responsibility that comes with it.