New Home for Griefing Tools

Would you have the Seburo and weapons like it banned from sale as well because they can be used to push?

Yes my start date is roughly a year ago and the arguements have been much longer than that but the fact still remains that the griefer should be dealt with not everyone else. The griefer will use whatever tool he can get his hands on to grief others.

Tcoz Bach:
"Unfortunately, and as insight into the emerging SL populace's character, I'm willing to bet 1k Linden that the objects are selling. "


Actually, the weapons are NOT selling. I've only had 1 sale.

That hardly constitutes brisk sales.

So... if on a lark, I decide to write a script that duplicates this function (clearing a sim), and never deploy it in any form, but simply keep it in my inventory, I should be banned? After all, I now own an 'illegal' script...

Personally, provided they are not violating the TOS, they're fair game. The moment they're used to violate the TOS (and I don't really care whether or not they have 'non-violating uses'), the user should be smacked down, hard.

This whole problem would just go away if the Lindens would add some simple permission toggles for avatars, like 'Ignore Script Pushes'. Why make things 'illegal', when you can just make them pointless instead?

OT: And stop with the 'terrorism'. Terrorism is politically/ideologically motivated violence against a civilian population. It is not 'everything people do that I don't like right now'.

[Broken Record]

Land tools, guys. Land tools. Have the ability to block this stuff from running on your parcel by your choice. Judging from prior history, I doubt the Lindens are going to want to get in the buisness of actively policing what objects are legal or not.

[/Broken Record]

I *have* been griefed by C4. I think I'm on C4 griefing number 11 or 12, but I've probably lost count. And yes, it can force a relog, or force your client to crash - that's happened to me as well. (Although I doubt this was programatically intentional).


If I could disable push scripts, disable particles, and disable sound effects on my parcel, C4 would mean absolutely nothing to me.

Travis

Merwan, whats wrong? Lately you seem so down - especially by the tone and content of your forum posts.

When I first joined this game, you were the first person I met - and were wide eyed and bushy tailed.

The first group I joined was Awakening Avatars. You're such a positive ray of energy - and yet I feel as if that ray is growing weaker by the day... I hope nothing is wrong, and I hope you are still the happy, eager, AV that I first met

Hell yes.

Damnit people. Show little respect and common sense.

Again you bring up moot points. A seburo can be used in many other ways than pushing. wich instead is C4's ONLY purpose.

How is it moot when it can push and still be used to grief? Don't get me wrong I own Seburo's and I love them ....but you can't make the claim that one should be banned and another shouldn't when they both can be used to push and therefore used to grief.

The difference stands in the fact that one is PURPOSEDLY designed JUST to push and as such to grief, while the other is designed for many different uses, only one f wich is pushing.

"So... if on a lark, I decide to write a script that duplicates this function (clearing a sim), and never deploy it in any form, but simply keep it in my inventory, I should be banned? After all, I now own an 'illegal' script... "

Nobody ever said owning. We said distributing. Yes, if you wrote that script, clearly intended to push all avatars in the area with tremendous force, and started distributing it aggressively (like ADVERTISING the thing sheesh), I would say you should be banned, whether or not it has an option to shoot flowers.

I use a push script in the Vorago, on the "bouncers" (things you walk on to get bounced). They clearly have a legit function in the game. BUT...they are clearly marked, they are called "bouncer", and you will only bounce if you walk onto the object. I have deliberately made the effort to ensure that an avatar will never be bounced unless they are aware of it and wish it. If the Avatar wants to bounce all day, that's fine and the Lindens won't cry foul, since it is voluntary and self inflicted. It is also confined to my land.

I would say THAT is in line with creating objects that use this capability legally. NOT a bomb that invisibly wipes a sim.

ok ...so if this bomb is scripted to have another feature such as a choice between blowing up the sim and pushing everyone or an alternate load of showering flowers then it would be acceptable?

Actually, I think the seller is just a Linden alt, gathering names of avatars they need to keep their eyes on. The buyers will then find themselves subject to surprise searches at every telehub.

Anyway, I do not think it should be illegal to create such items, and it doesn't seem too many are suggesting that. As for selling it, well....

I can actually see a limited use for "local" explosives in SL games. Something that affects a limited radius. Traps in an FPS game for instance.

As for sim-wide explosions, I can kind of see a sim-wide game where this might be handy (say in a team game and if part of the team fails it's task, boom). But this would have to be limited to island sims only. If someone were to do this in a mainland sim they did not fully own, this is a serious offense.

Still, there is a big difference between sim-busters (sim-wide effect) and guns. These bombs are by design indiscriminate. Guns have to focused, generally. If I fly by (but not into) a fire fight, the odds I'll get hit are probably pretty low. If I'm anywhere in a sim when a bomb goes off, the probability of getting pushed and likely relogging is basically 100%.

Also, the problem with sim bombs is that they can affect avatars outside of view range. Last time I got hit by one of these (sim bombs, don't think it's the same ones mentioned here), I was in DarkLife and it brought the sim down and forced everyone to relog. The folks who were out fighting had no idea what happened or who did it. The detonator however failed to notice a few avs who were milling about in town and saw him/her do it, so abuse reports followed. But if the person had waited until we were out of range, or just moved to an unpopulated area of the sim, no one would have been the wiser.

Still, I'm firmly in the allowed to create camp, and leaning towards the allow to sell since there COULD be some rare cases where sim-wide bombs could be used fairly (but only in island sims) and I definately support local area explosives. But equating these devices with guns seems disproportiante to its effects. Risks of abuse are FAR greater, whether that risk is too big to allow, I'm not so sure of.

ETA: Yeah, I'd love land options to make this a moot point, that would be ideal.

I'd say definately yes

Thanks for your kind words Jamie - so I guess Im not always Rainbows (where's Billy when I need him?)

I'm burned out seeing the same issues keep on repeating themselves, and LL apparently having other priorities.

Oh, and I've been called many things, but never "bushy tailed."

/sob

Everyone's too busy arguing to pay attention to my Land Tools idea. I feel so irrelevant.

Oh, wait - I am irrelevant.

Carry on then



Trav

Land tools are fine for your own land but push guns and or bombs can be used anywhere pretty much so individual land tools won't have an impact unless everyone uses it.

That's missing the point a bit, Talen. The main objection I've seen to the product on this thread is it being used on people who aren't interested in being blown into the next sim. Such things might be enjoyable in Jessie, but not in most places, where social interaction trumps this alternative to Counterstrike.

The point is it *is* fine for your own land. I don't go to Jessie unless I'm interested in having my avi blown 9 ways to Sunday (not that I know what's happening in Jessie currently...has the furor of the 'war' there died down?) With selective land tool like Travis is suggesting, club and mall owners can set restrictions as they see fit. And I can go to a beach party without fear of a bunch of idiots popping in and firing push guns all over the place.

I think the forums are going to see a steady stream of threads like this and the invisible rezzing scanners one until:

1) The Lindens take definitive action one way or the other.

or

2) The Lindens give us the ability to police ourselves.

That is a SCARY thought.

It sure is...you can bet if given the opportunity to police ourselves there will be many pitchfork injuries then.

Schwanson and Talen: may I then extrapolate from your responses that you both fall into the "Second Life is only a game" category?

No I don't think it is just a game and I believe the future holds a lot for SL and its inhabitants. Self government just doesn't work. Not only are we talking about differing opinions between residents but different countries and cultures. Self government would stiffle creativity and kill SL.

That being said I am involved with Neaultenburg and its form of government. On a small scale with no real power it is interesting. Grid wide with power would be very scary.

But we have self government in real life....what's the difference?


"Government on a small scale with no real power" is, pardon me for saying so, not government.

Is it a game? Yes. But it is not ONLY a game.

If people like Shiryu were to gain some sort of power to police SL, it would certainly be a much more peaceful place. But then again, morgues are peaceful as well, I certainly have no plans of paying $1000 USD a month to play in one.

I believe players certainly need to have a say in the direction SL takes, as far as policies and TOS revisions. But think it would be a fatal mistake if LL ever implemented a player run police force. ATM we have the forums to get our voices heard, this is not scalable. I think a representative government is what will eventually come to be. But feel strongly that this representative government should have the power to just make suggestions to LL and in no way actually be the final authority to implement changes.