DO you think a Mall Owner has the right to DELETE your objects?

As far as rights are concerned, there are no restrictions on what land owners can do with their existing land options. There are no enforceable contracts, and LL doesn't get involved in disputes.

So buyer beware. Or renter, in this case. Place your objects like you'll never see them again. Take backups into your inventory. Save your non-copy vending machines for mall owners that you trust, and if an owner does something unethical, vote with your wallet and get the word out that this person is not to be trusted.

I'm looking forward to anything RATE or similar organization will be doing with situations such as this. Maybe if it will earn you a black mark with a trusted organization, owners will think twice about doing these things.

as a non mall owner (but someone who leaves land open to build and encourages people to come and use some of the space/resources we're alloted) i tend to return objects the first time someone leaves them out, return them with a warning the second time, and then just delete after that point. Unless those objects are selling things or contain unknown/locked from view scripts that are active, in which case i generally delete them on sight (as theres no way to know what those objects are doin, loggin chats, scanning people, etc etc)

This still does not justify deletion over returning.

Slight discrepancy - the poll asks do they have THE RIGHT, and your query asks if it IS RIGHT...

2 different answers:

Do they have the right? Certainly. Pretty subjective - they have the right to delete anything on their land - as you have the right to delete anything on yours.


Is it right? That's objective - and going to be different for each person -- I think if no notice is given it's not a terribly social or considerate thing to do - so I'd say (for me) no.


Siggy..

I think the question was MALL OWNERS not every owner so the topic is specific to the problem. Please remember that.

So I said no I do not think Mall owners should be deleting anything.

Why? because if they just arbitrarly delete then the seller has no clue the Item is no longer in place and when it comes time to go "Pay" the rent and the items are just "Gone" then it creates a larger grievence.

So I think on situations like " Malls " the owner should return and not delete because returning gives the seller notice something was wrong or what ever and Items were returned incase it was a misunderstanding. This also gives the seller ample opportunity to fix if there is a problem with a script or light or what ever.

Which also goes hand in hand with another one of the No Refunds on "Rental" spots. To me thats a clear sign of not to rent there.

It means the individual doesnt have enough operating capital to run that buisness as it is without relying on the rental till the rental period is up.

Renting in a NO Refund Mall is risky business because suppose you rent for 30 days and on day 7 of filling up all the vendor spots the owner says ok time to bail and poof their goes 3weeks worth of rent to gom then to thier pockets.

Anyway I digress,
Shadow

Been thinking. There is one situation in which it's justified.

<HYPOTHETICAL>
A mall has several rules. Among these rules are the following...
* No Particles
* No Timers
* No Spammy text
* No listens, and ESPECIALLY no channel 0 listens.

OK, a merchant uses several of the above, having ignored or not read the rules... (actually I really do get this quite often, they don't read mall rules then whinge when I pull them up on it.). In this case, the mall owner has warned them about it, maybe more than once, to no avail, and it's starting to impact sim performance.
</HYPOTHETICAL>

In this case, I think it's not only a right, but the duty of the mall owner to delete the objects - we assume that the warnings issued included a return - in this instance, to protect the business of the other merchants paying for space in the mall.

So this is after previously having returned the object? So by deleting you would hope that they didn't notice and replace it?

I just realised I answered the wrong question. Mall owners *do* have that right.
However, it's unethical to delete when a return will do the trick. Deletes are for times when some belligerent renter keeps restoring the objects being validly returned or similar.

Yah, if I had a mall, I'd return stuff back to the owner unless they did what you mentioned, and kept setting up a "vigilante stall" or something. This would, of course, follow me communicating with owner of said stuff. It's nice to have an explanation... otherwise it's like:

"WTF WAS MY STUFF RETURNED???"

sometimes.

But if the tenant *knew* the sim was to sold or whatever they would go and collect their stuff rather than waiting for it to appear piecemeal. There is a pattern of sims changing hands and the tenants being shafted. Unlike in rl tenants have no rights here.

*However* all we can rely on is word of mouth and previous behaviour. Those who behave badly get blacklisted. Most of these rogue landlords are giving up after realising that they are not making any money. Some remain in business presuming that people will forget or that there is always a stream of newbies. Some may even be oblivious. Needless to say that this is not the way to build a long term SL business. The big players are some of the most professional in my experience - they wouldn't have got there by behaving like arseholes.

*There is no excuse for a landlord not to tell their tenants that the property is being sold (when it is a done deal).
*There is no excuse for deleting objects without any warning, especially when the tenant has done nothing wrong.

If people know objects are going to be returned then if they don't want the spam they will go and collect them.

A good example of a professional way of dealing with a change in mall ownership has been the sale of Pyramid Mall.

We were told it had been sold and given a rent refund. The new landlord contacted us and told us what was going on as well.

In one of the Centreville malls objects not set to group are about to be returned. We *all* know this as we have been told several times. No objects are going to be deleted - if you don't want the object spam then go and sort out your stall.

Landlords who delete other people's property don't deserve to be in business very long - and generally aren't.

It is polite to notify shop merchants prior to a return and then return items rather than delete them.

However, accidents happen... both on the server side and human error.... so I think it is smart to accept that you have an inherent risk of losing no-copy stuff that you put on land someone else controls.

Recently I had an accident and deleted half of the people in our store. Everyone was very understanding that shit sometimes happens.

I blame rum btw. Never edit while drinking umbrella drinks.

Surreal

At such a point, I'd think they'd also be barred from the mall.
You tell someone that A isn't allowed... then you returnit saying it's not allowed...
If they insist on replacing it, start deleting it, and if it's a no-copy item, it's their problem. What I mean is, it's a last resort... one which personally I would hope never to have to use. Most people are quite good about rules once they know them, they just don't bother reading them in the first place.

honestly given this is a problem that isn't likely to go away, i reccomend you petition the people who provide you with these vendors, to do so with a copy/notransfer bit. Mebbe pay abit more up front for them 2-3x the cost if you choose to buy them with that option, but that way you buy them ONCE, and yer good to use them as often as you would like

(think of it like a license to use the vend rather than any one single object)

I think this depends, I dont know any vendors that dont keep copies of there goods and vendors. So why would you want more copies of stuff you already have filling your inventory? I own a few malls in SL and have recevied more complaints about the unnecessary "green screen" from returns. I had one complaint once because I deleted a vendors objects. Mind you they had not paid there rent in days and someone else wanted the space. In this one case I think it was more personal than a issue than about "more copies" being returned to them.

In closing if the rent was paid it would have enver happened anyways. Dose anyone feel that some vendors should be allowed to leave there objects in a mall while everyone esle has to pay there rents?

I usually give vendors a few days to pay if they go over. Unfortunately, you never know what the reason is. If they can't log in to pay, they can't pay...

If someone is waiting for the stall, I contact the vendor first, if I can...

hmmm, well as long as you can always return items, I don't see a point in deletion either other than ignorange of the return option, mistake, or just pure hostility. Maybe it's time to post that suggestion again. I would second that.

Ooooookay... I know one person I'll never do business with.

Now you see, if we had enforcable contracts, people would agree to give notice, and promise not to delete your items for x amount of time. And then people wouldn't have this problem.

I'd like to know from vendors whats prefered.

I have always deleted because of the negitive IMs I have received from returns. Many of the locations are 100 prims or more and this is alot of prim filling already full inventories. Personaly as a landlord and as a tenat, I would rather mine be deleted insted of returning. But, as a landlord it doesn't matter to me what button I push not like one is more time consuming than the other. I would prefer if someone was not continuing to rent that they would come collect there objects. This almost never happens by the way. I have just had a delete policy as courtesy as most vendors didn't want copied prims filling there inventory. I would gladly change my policy but, I think this would be unpopular with the vendor.

As far as contacting them first, of course. I use auto rentos on a 2 week rental the rento will send a message a 5 different times with days left reports. This is more than ample notification.

Thank You. If you feel that its ok to occupy space without paying your rent and that personal issues are an acceptable way to conduct business then, Please dont. How could you feel that if someone does not care enough about there own objects how do you expect me to care for them?

The differance with me is I have firm policies about how my business in SL is conducted. My vendors appricate knowing how I stand on the issues. I know, as I have received many thank you IMs, that the Plush Shops Vendors, over 200 of them, appricate my comunications with them. If I ever make changes I update every vendor with a note card. There is a HUGE differance between a fligh by night Mall Owner and an astablished chain. I have closed 3 malls of the 14 I once had. In all three cases every vendor was notified and vendors with rents remaining were refunded in full rounded up.

It's a freaking vendor! Some are no copy! Don't delete! Return! You have NO IDEA what's going on in the personal lives (REAL LIVES) of people who haven't paid rent. Two weeks ago my wife unexpectantly ended up in the hospital for two nights. What if one of my stalls had expired during that time, Blue?! You would have assumed I don't care about my items, so why should you, right?

:hakes head::

I'm not happy to hear that attitude, not at all. I have to think hard about renewing my PLUSH spots now because you have no right to delete another person's property. They are renting the SPACE, you are not granted ownership rights to their things.

eek I misunderstood the question. I voted yes (was thinking return)

My answer on deleting is a BIG NO. the land is owned by the mall owner, but that dosent mean they should delete YOUR content when they can simply return. In most cases I am sure the mall owner wasn't intentionally malliciously going around deleting things. (I hope) but if you bring your loss to their attention they can learn from their mistakes. IF the reason your items are deleted is because YOU are behind on your rent, maybe you should have removed your items or msg the mall owner to explain your situation to avoid the chance they delete your vendors prematurely. But in any event it would be only considerate to return VS delete in just about any of circumstances.

as the lindens say, "try talking to them."

2 things more:

first dont go crazy and turn this thread into a flame against Blue. He is a good friend and I have done much buisness with him. He is posting from experience, something many people dont have. There are vendors on both sides of the wall, some have items that are no copy, some dont so the solution for each is different, there is no way to satisfy everyone, or we would be in eutopia. Lets put more pressure on the tenants to be aware of what they want. the landlord cant keep up with everyones RL and SL situations, but the player can help them by communicating! If you have a no copy vendor, MAKE 2.


Second Delete serves its place, I have had many players ask for deletes as well as myself, not everyone wants their items returned under all circumstances, so taking delete OUT of the picture would be extremely limiting and a degression on SL's behalf.

but I do understand your loss and would hope all players do smarter buisness.

lets follow the 3 C's:

COPY
COMMUNICATE
COMPASSION

good point and also most spaces are on rentos and people love to nab them the second they become available.....I try to pay in advance so the problem doesn't arise.

No I don't think that personal issues should be used to conduct business. That's why I wouldn't work with somone who has a policy to destroy someone's belonging when they could just as easily returned them. It's about character, and it's about professionalism, and despite how I may feel about a person, my money isn't going with them if they do not display any.