Smoking ban...exactly what is a public place?

Absolutely

Hmmm... do we all breath young children in order to live?

Maybe a workaround can be found, but the ban is in place I think because every establishment will allow smoking if they were given the choice. All the smokers would rather go somewhere where they can sit down and not have to leave for a cigarrette. Which isn't fair to the non-smoker who has to breathe that air against their will.. and if every establishment offered smoking... you get the point.

A workaround has been found in Canada -- private smoking clubs. The way these work is that the patrons have to become a member and pay a small due to the club... then they're allowed inside and can smoke inside all they want. Which I think is a fine idea since it will give all the die-hard smokers a place to hang out at while all the more popular and "more public" places can remain smoke-free inside for the enjoyment of everyone.

hehehe, that we can agree on!

Automobiles at least serve a purpose and the there are regulations to keep down the toxic elements emitted by the automobiles. Cigarettes serve no purpose other than to satisfy the addiction it caused in the first place and the toxic elements are not regulated. When I run, I can tolerate the exhaust fume but if someone comes by me smoking, it immediately impacts my ability to breathe. No one should have the right to do that, regardless of what they are doing. If I am drinking, should I force you to drink as well?

You're ignoring the fact that there is no conclusive proof that second hand smoke harms you any more than any other atmospheric pollutant. It's a straw man.

I think that is the most inadvertantly creepy quote I have seen ina while in the forums

If you talk on your cel phone near me you impact my ability to concentrate. If you bring a screaming baby near me you impact my ability to hear. You have no right as an individual to dictate to others what they can and cannot do, or to businesses what they can and cannot allow on their private property. If you want to give your business to non-smoking establishments, great. More power to you. I dare say that you occasionally smelling something you find distasteful is a far lesser burden than privately owned restaurants and bars going out of business because half their former patrons drive to another county with less draconian laws. In my area, where a smoking ban was passed about a year ago, small mom and pop restaurants are going out of business and leaving only the large chains behind. I'm glad you find that justified on the basis of you not liking the smell of cigarette smoke

Wow, you must have some extremely discriminating lungs. Can your lungs really differentiate between the pollution caused by "necessary" vehicles and the smoke created by the "unnecessary" cigg. Now that is a feat worth mentioning. I suppose next you will tell me that ciggs contribution to global warming exceeds that of the SUV.

And no you wouldn't need to force me to drink. Drinking causes enough ills as it is without force involved.

Alcohol-related motor vehicle crashes kill someone every 32 minutes, and non-fatally injure someone every two minutes. Last year alone, over one million people were injured in alcohol-related traffic crashes.

So how many people died or were injured this year from second hand smoke?

I don't care if it harms me or not. It makes my eyes water, my nose run, makes me cough, and makes my close smell. Anyone who would force that upon me in a public place, or a restauraunt is just plain rude.

Don't just ban smoking. Ban SMOKERS! Oh, and ban minors too.

People with body odor have the same effect on my mucous membranes. Again if you don't like it stay away from it...You won't catch me hugging some cat owning kid who smells like a gym sock and I wouldn't be offended if any of you decided not to sit with me at a bar. Now, that said if we were there together and you made me aware of your dislike of smoking, I would be the first to suggest that we sit in the non-smoking area. Maybe you all live among some weirdo smokers rights group who chase non-smokers around with Cheech sized hand rolled nic sticks. It just doesn't happen in my neck of backer country. Though I have been followed outside by non-smokers and subjected to a couple of cigs worth of their lectures.

Oh Yeah - gotta love the weenie that follows you outside when you excuse yourself to have a cigarette, then stands right on top of you and lectures you on the evils of smoking while batting at the smoke from your cigarette. I tend to dislike them almost as much as I dislike the missionaries that ring my door bell at 7:30 on Saturday morning to sell their particular version of Christianity.

I follow the smokers outside now but it's not to lecture, it's frequently because they are them most fun and articulate people at the table.

On the same logic, I guess it doesn't matter if we continue shooting people -- at least we're not bombing them.

Look -- I'm not saying the world should be allowed to infringe on your right to smoke. You wanna smoke, go right ahead. I hope you're happy that you smoke.

However if I'm sitting in a bar, why do I have to leave if everyone else wants to light up?

The analogies used by a lot of people so far don't touch on my arguments. They're a little vague in their connections to my point.

Let's say you invite over a non-smoking friend to your apartment. Would you sit on a couch beside them and just light up without asking? No... it's rude, right?

Now lets say you go to a bar with your friend who doesn't smoke, but doesn't mind that you do. Now your in a place that has about 60 people in it and 48 of them smoke, including you. You have no clue who 11 of those non-smokers are, but with everyone lighting up say half-a pack over the night in a 4.5 hour period in an enclosed space... the smoke gets thick enough to be very toxic.

Now it doesn't affect me so much since I'd smoked for 7 years and it's only been a year without a single one; but my non-smoker friends who've never smoked hated going to bars and clubs before the smoking ban. They'd come home and the next morning they'd be coughing and feeling like garbage from it. Some of them are allergic which made it worse -- they'd get rashes or hives if they stayed in the bar/club long enough.

So they never really went out to bars or clubs and it pissed them off a lot because half their friends were smokers and would have a great time while they either had to suffer it or stay home.

How fun is that?

So when the ban came out, it was such a relief. The smokers had to stand outside, everyone got to go out together, and no one really had to suffer.

So despite how "marginal" or "extreme" it might be, cigarrette smoke is detrimental to anyone's health. Whether you smoke it through a filter or inhale it from the thick haze looming in a bar, it's not good for anyone. It's not like if I shot up heroin or snorted coke, that everyone in the room would have to share in it's detrimental effects, no matter how insignificant. It affects me if I do that stuff and only me. Just like if I drink a beer, it affects me and only me...

so what? smokers have to take it outside. Is it really that big of a deal? Is it infringing out your fundamental right to smoke to make you go outside and do it? Does it make you feel oppressed?

I personally don't see what the big deal is. Then again, I always took it outside when I was a smoker. My friends thought it was weird, I just thought it was curteousy.

Cool America's getting the ban too?

Personally I think it's a great idea, although I am a non smoker. The ban isn't yet officially in place here in Northern Ireland but when I go down south, the law is very much so enforced and it seems to be very effective. Cigarette sales have reduced slightly, workers in bars and public places are happier and in general all non smokers have a more pleasant life. Some smokers have used the ban as an opportunity to quit smoking!

Now up North, the ban isn't official. When it first came into play down south, many people who lived near the border would come over the border to have the expierience of smoking in bars etc. Not long after that, many restaurants, bars, pubs have decided that they will enforce the rule and is proving to be successful up here too.

Many people would say that the ban is terrible for smokers. I agree, it is an addiction and it shouldn't be forced apon people to quit so abruptly, especially in an age of extreme stress that we all live in today. Hehe even the law about smoking (I think) canabis is going to be relaxed, alloying it to be smoked 'as long as you arn't caught'.

It will be awkward at first when the ban is introduced, but in the long term the idea is that it will work out as an advantage to EVERYONE, smokers and non smokers.

Agreed. In the long run, it's better to keep it out of public places but to not put control on peoples' choices.

At least with smoking bans in public bars and such things, it doesn't infringe on the rights of the non-smokers as well.

I give up. You are all right majority rules should bow out to the sanctimonious few...If there are 48 smokers in a bar and 11 non-smokers it seems pretty fricken apparent who doesn't belong there. Why does this have to be a law? Why can we not allow people to make decisions for themselves. Business owners will open non-smoking bars when the friggen drinkers quite smoking. That is capitalism....this is not a socialist country. I don't care if I had never picked up a cigg in my entire life, I would still fight for a private business owners right to allow smoking, disallow smoking or only allow smoking of hand rolled fine cigars. These businesses are private. Open a non-smoking bar, others have and they do quite well.

I do not go to the Evening Muse and light up in front of the stage. Why? It is a non-smoking bar. I also do not whine and complain that my rights are being violated by the Evening Muse. Why? Because the owner decided to make the bar non-smoking and I respect the right of the business owner.

Great they are outlawing something in Ireland. If you like the government mandating the rights of private business owners then so be it...here in the US we do not. It is one of the reasons we left Europe in the first place....the whole govco infringing on our personal rights gig.

Let the market decide. This is not a criminal issue at the most it is a negligable health concern. But so is walking across the street.

Things I would like to ban because they do more harm than good to society: households with more than 1 vehicle, families with more than 1 child (and the petri dishes known as daycares that people house them in), perfumes (people have not figured out that though they are immune to the scent, I can smell them from across the street), 4 wd vehicles driven by people who have never been off road or who have no cause to be off road, children under the age of 10 in resteraunts, all fast food chains, RX designer drugs, 40oz cans of beer (or anything with the words malt liqour on the label), vinyl siding/window/gutters, all gas powered lawn tools, homes built with unusable square footage (everyone should just be allotted x amount of land with a pre designed 5 bedroom home...screw it we would be better off forced to live in sky rise condo's) and religions of all sorts. That is right no more gods of any fashion or form. The gods of the world and those who follow them blindly are the root cause of most of the hardships, persecutions and wars man has dealt with through the ages. Find a problem and odds are good that some god is lurking somewhere around the corner edging it on. Even tobacco has links to the gods. pfft...And as frogs sinking into the sedating warmth of tepid water, so are the days of our lives.

I really do understand your concern for the business owners and their patrons. However, there are issues that non-smokers have as well and I think that is the reason for the smoking ban. It's not because some riteous minority is rising up and pilliaging a system to alienate you you in the name of their beliefs.

I really hope I didn't waste 10mins of my life to have a discussion with you if you're ignoring my entire post.

It's hardly about your right to smoke.

The ban is for public spaces.. so if you open a bar that you want open to the public, then the public has to share the air in that public space. Since non-smokers are also part of the public and air is a requirement for living, smokers polluting that public space are infringing on the rights of the non-smokers to enjoy a smoke-free environment.

It goes for public vehicles. Government buildings. Malls. Stores. Used to be that you could smoke in those places too. But when we realized that smoking not only causes cancer, but emphezyma, hyper-ventilation, and aggravates asthma and allergies -- we slowly put bans on smoking in those places.

Now we're finally getting around to the sanctomonious hovels of the smokers where people of all creeds, smokers and non smokers, convene to socialize. All this time the smokers just filled the air without a care for the other patrons with their smoke. Only now we're making them go outside since asking never worked.

Still... not one smoker has answered me. Is it such a big deal to walk 3 seconds to go outside or sit on the patio to have a cigarrette? Does it make you feel oppressed?

Yes it is a big deal. For all of the reasons you have stated. Smoking has been banned in grocery stores, malls, cinema's, stadiums, ampi theaters, arenas and work places not by the government but by the owners of the establishments. Smoking in publicly owned facilities such as schools, courthouses, jails, libraries ect was banned by the government because they are owned outright by the public. Why is it so hard for you non-smokers to leave bars alone? Is it really so difficult for you to find a non-smoking establishment?

My point was this: If you go into a bar, you probably aren't going there for health reasons right? You're more than likely going to consume alcohol. You make a conscious CHOICE to go hang out there, knowing full well there will be smoking going on and has been since the advent of smoking by Western peoples.

I hear all of this *why should I/they be forced to breathe your smoke?*. You're not. No one is forcing you to go to a bar. As I pointed out above I doubt anyone goes to a bar to work out and drink protein shakes.

Now when I step outside, I have NO CHOICE but to breath that air which is tainted by automobiles and industry. I have to go outside. Where is the greater danger?

As far as the *go smoke outside* line of reasoning, this is already banned in some areas as well. How long do you think it will be before that too becomes pervasive? In my opinion, this is less about the actual dangers involved and more about wanting to control other people's behavior because of preconceived feelings about smoking in general.

I do not smoke, nor have I ever, but I have CHOSEN to work in bars. I wasn't forced to, nor was it the only job I could get. The large portion of my profits while bartending comes from smokers and I have talked with scads of them about this law coming in March. Most of them will simply stay home. Great, now I lose the greaterd portion of my income because of the crusade of a few. This already happened in Duluth, MN and as I stated a few pages back, some Landmark restaurant/bars closed down as a result of it. They simply couldn't afford the overhead without the income from their smoking patrons.

Yes and Yes.

I'm all for non-smoking bars, as long as there are smoking bars too. Why should ALL of them be non-smoking? Just as you want your clean air (I do too), there should be establishments that allow smoking? Why is that so bad?

How is it that Miami Beach, and actually the entire state of Florida, which relies heavily on income from tourism, including restaurants and bars, has not been affected at all by the ban after a year, but it is ruining Duluth?

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/9050837.htm?1c

It's not ruining Duluth.

It is however a very blue collar town that is impacted hard when the rest of the US is in times of financial hardship.

I would imagine it would have little effect if an entire region (such as Florida) banned it, but if it was banned on a town-by-town basis, people will see some impact.

Something else to add to the bartending tips comment as well:

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9812/20/bartender.smoke/