Smoking ban...exactly what is a public place?
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-21-2004 21:56
From: Cristiano Midnight Their "right" to run their business as they see fit does not extend to endangering the health of those whom they employ. Workers in restaurants and bars should not have to endure the health risks of second hand smoke. That point is a very large reason why the decision is out of the hands of private owners - its a workplace safety issue.
While that screaming 2 year old might cause you to want to rip your eardrums out, I imagine that you would choose hearing a child cry over developing lung cancer. I fully realized that by accepting a job in a bar I would be subjecting myself to those conditions.
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Isis Becquerel
Ferine Strumpet
Join date: 1 Sep 2004
Posts: 971
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12-21-2004 22:00
From: Icon Serpentine We don't allow smoking in bars, clubs, restaurants, or casinos here in Canada.
And I'm really happy about it.
Why?
Because I don't want to go to a club and have to breathe second-hand smoke if I don't want to. It's like we walk into a bar and have to drink eachothers' drink all night in order to live. If you wanna pollute the air with your filthy habit, take it outside. No harm taking 5 minutes to be polite.
New legislation is lining up to ban smoking from public places period and will become an offence if you smoke inside your home if you have children in your care... which goes a little further than most people are comfortable with right now, but I think it's fair. I bet it will pass in a couple years too.
People need to wise up, and keeping smoking away from the public will hopefully reduce the number of cancer-related deaths every year a little bit. Heck, it might even lower the number of smokers in the country. Alrighty then...I am allergic to cats, in fact many people are. When someone invades my space with cat dander on their person, it causes me to break out in hives, sneeze uncontrollably, my eyes and throat swell to the point where I can no longer breath. All cats should be banned from the world. Why should I be assaulted by cat hairs and dander in public place just so that folks can have the right to own a cat? Why because there will always be something that somebody does that someone else doesn't like. That is not a cause for legislation. If you do not like smoking do not go into privately owned establishments who offer smoking areas to those who wish to smoke. You folks never cease to amaze me. What if I said people should be banned from having children. Children are a major cause of disease in the world. They carry germs and are generally unclean. I should not be forced to sit next to a sneezing, coughing crusty little blob of puss and snot just because folks want to spread their seed and then bring the spoiled fruits of their labor to a public place. So now cats and children should be banned. What else will someone somewhere find offensive...ahh vehicles. All vehicles should be banned. They promote unhealthy lifestyles and obesity by forcing people not to walk or peddle to their errands. Why without cars people would not be run over while playing in the streets, noise and air pollution would be drastically reduced. Not to mention that without cars there would be no DUI's, speeding tickets, parking tickets. The world would be far safer without cats, children, vehicles ohh and religion...now there is a noteworthy cause of death and destruction better take that one out of the public domain as well. We can just have a nice safe religion for everyone without the whole diversity thing mucking it up. Now that would be a beautiful world 
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One of the most fashionable notions of our times is that social problems like poverty and oppression breed wars. Most wars, however, are started by well-fed people with time on their hands to dream up half-baked ideologies or grandiose ambitions, and to nurse real or imagined grievances.
Thomas Sowell
As long as the bottle of wine costs more than 50 bucks, I'm not an alcoholic...even if I did drink 3 of them.
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Isis Becquerel
Ferine Strumpet
Join date: 1 Sep 2004
Posts: 971
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12-21-2004 22:02
From: Nolan Nash I fully realized that by accepting a job in a bar I would be subjecting myself to those conditions. Thank you...again it is your choice to work in the establishment Chris. So if you don't like it don't work there. If enough people agree with you then the establishment will likely close down.
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One of the most fashionable notions of our times is that social problems like poverty and oppression breed wars. Most wars, however, are started by well-fed people with time on their hands to dream up half-baked ideologies or grandiose ambitions, and to nurse real or imagined grievances.
Thomas Sowell
As long as the bottle of wine costs more than 50 bucks, I'm not an alcoholic...even if I did drink 3 of them.
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Nathan Klein
FataleKlein Island Owner
Join date: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 38
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12-21-2004 22:29
A few years back, the city of houston made an attempt at passing an ordiance on smoking in resturants. The proposal failed badly, reason being that so many groups went to the steps of the city council and protested. The mayor backed off on it, and it has never been brought up since.
Only 2 counties have such a ban on smoking and those are Tarrant and Dallas County. To my best of knowledge they failed in the rest of the counties.
and yes for the record im proud to smoke, it was my choice. Not influenced by friends or marketing, or family. I chose to pick the cigarette up. Its my freedom and choice to do so.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-21-2004 22:31
From: Nathan Klein A few years back, the city of houston made an attempt at passing an ordiance on smoking in resturants. The proposal failed badly, reason being that so many groups went to the steps of the city council and protested. The mayor backed off on it, and it has never been brought up since.
Only 2 counties have such a ban on smoking and those are Tarrant and Dallas County. To my best of knowledge they failed in the rest of the counties.
and yes for the record im proud to smoke, it was my choice. Not influenced by friends or marketing, or family. I chose to pick the cigarette up. Its my freedom and choice to do so. I used to live in TX, if I remember correctly, doesn't Dallas county have some messed up drinking laws as well?
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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12-21-2004 22:36
From: Nathan Klein
and yes for the record im proud to smoke, it was my choice. Not influenced by friends or marketing, or family. I chose to pick the cigarette up. Its my freedom and choice to do so.
Bravo, that's wonderful for you. However, your freedom and choice stops at endangering the health of others.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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12-21-2004 22:41
From: Isis Becquerel Thank you...again it is your choice to work in the establishment Chris. So if you don't like it don't work there. If enough people agree with you then the establishment will likely close down. Many people work in a place because it is where they can find a job. Private companies are not exempt from protecting the health of their employees - even if you are willing to allow yourself to get cancer to work there.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-21-2004 22:58
From: Cristiano Midnight Many people work in a place because it is where they can find a job. Private companies are not exempt from protecting the health of their employees - even if you are willing to allow yourself to get cancer to work there. Hey! You didn't respond to me! 
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Icon Serpentine
punk in drublic
Join date: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 858
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12-21-2004 23:07
From: Isis Becquerel Alrighty then...I am allergic to cats, in fact many people are. When someone invades my space with cat dander on their person, it causes me to break out in hives, sneeze uncontrollably, my eyes and throat swell to the point where I can no longer breath. All cats should be banned from the world. Why should I be assaulted by cat hairs and dander in public place just so that folks can have the right to own a cat? Why because there will always be something that somebody does that someone else doesn't like. That is not a cause for legislation. If you do not like smoking do not go into privately owned establishments who offer smoking areas to those who wish to smoke. You folks never cease to amaze me. What if I said people should be banned from having children. Children are a major cause of disease in the world. They carry germs and are generally unclean. I should not be forced to sit next to a sneezing, coughing crusty little blob of puss and snot just because folks want to spread their seed and then bring the spoiled fruits of their labor to a public place. So now cats and children should be banned. What else will someone somewhere find offensive...ahh vehicles. All vehicles should be banned. They promote unhealthy lifestyles and obesity by forcing people not to walk or peddle to their errands. Why without cars people would not be run over while playing in the streets, noise and air pollution would be drastically reduced. Not to mention that without cars there would be no DUI's, speeding tickets, parking tickets. The world would be far safer without cats, children, vehicles ohh and religion...now there is a noteworthy cause of death and destruction better take that one out of the public domain as well. We can just have a nice safe religion for everyone without the whole diversity thing mucking it up. Now that would be a beautiful world Allergies are one thing. People don't gather in public places with their cats, and if they followed you around with one with the implicit purpose of harming you, I'm sure there are many ways you can deal with it. My point was, yes -- bars serve alcohol. But guess what? We don't have to drink it! Non-drinkers can still go dancing at a club or hang out at a bar without drinking. Why can't a non-smoker? Because we share the air and we all need it to live. Either way -- alcohol or cigarrettes or what have you -- it's not a good choice either way. Smoking does all sorts of horrible things to you. And sure, if you're in a room with one single person who is smoking, there isn't a very high ppm count entering your lungs -- but in a small bar or club where smokers create a thick toxic cloud in the air? And where are all the cats in the bar anyway? It's not like people aren't allergic to smoking either or anything. It comes down to respect -- if you're allergic to my cat, I'm not going to shove a cat in your face because I'm addicted to kittens when I go to the bar or restaurant or something. Again, smoking is filthy, addictive, and does horrible things to the human body which is why I don't do it and why when I did (7 year smoker), I took it outside and never smoked around kids. Respect. It was my problem, so I kept it that way rather than sharing it with the room. Cars? Children? Poor eating habits? Again -- respect. The government in Canada definitely isn't hypocritical about this issue. They're pushing out a "1-Tonne Challenge" to get Canadians to reduce their energy consumption by at least 20% each. That will certainly reduce pollution and clean up the world we have to share. Respect again. Just like I keep my glass to myself, and many other things to myself. Just because half a room full of people like to smoke and it should be their choice to, doesn't mean I have to suffer and breathe smoke-filled rooms. Just like you shouldn't have to go to a bar and be surrounded by cats. If everyone had a little respect for eachother, there wouldn't need to be laws to ban smoking from bars and restaurants. And hey, it's still your choice. Smoke away -- just not in the air I have to share with you. Take 5 seconds to walk outside and light up or frequent places that have the properly ventilated and sectioned off smoking rooms. Sorry to ruin your day, but it's not gonna kill ya.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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12-21-2004 23:16
From: Nolan Nash Hey! You didn't respond to me! LOL I didn't know quite how to respond to you
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-21-2004 23:16
Hmm, if I refuse to commute via automobile and instead choose to ride a bicycle, should I go lobby to have automobiles removed from service due to the fact their waste product kills more people per year than second hand smoke, and I am forced to breathe it? After all this is a PUBLIC space, the sidewalk or street. Bars on the other hand are not. They are privately owned establishments which you may CHOOSE to go to. When riding my bike down the road PUBLIC space is being infiltrated by noxious gases. What is the difference between say, inviting friends over to your house and allowing smoking versus inviting people into your restaurant allowing smoking? Both are privately owned land.
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Isis Becquerel
Ferine Strumpet
Join date: 1 Sep 2004
Posts: 971
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12-21-2004 23:22
hrmm....Ahh the forked tongue of the reformed smoker.
Again if you don't like smoke patronize non-smoking establishments. The evidence concerning 2nd hand smoke is marginal. Banning smoking in privately owned businesses is no better than saying all privately owned businesses must allow smoking. Bottom line, that is it. Let your cash vote for you. Let the capitalist machine work it out not some whiney assed ,liberal, Big Momma gov-co loving, child spawning group of socialist jag offs. Asking Momma government to legislate away the ills of the world so that a few agenda du jour self righteous groups can save themselves from being offended is not the American Way. That is not what this country was founded on. I don't need legislation to tell me to respect others personal space and health concerns, I do that on my own. If you want some ivory tower suits mandating your life into a disneyfied, candy coated world of comfortable numbness by all means go right ahead. Just don't expect me to shut up about it.
Chris even you can't truely believe that people have no other choice besides working in a smoking establishment.
_____________________
One of the most fashionable notions of our times is that social problems like poverty and oppression breed wars. Most wars, however, are started by well-fed people with time on their hands to dream up half-baked ideologies or grandiose ambitions, and to nurse real or imagined grievances.
Thomas Sowell
As long as the bottle of wine costs more than 50 bucks, I'm not an alcoholic...even if I did drink 3 of them.
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Isis Becquerel
Ferine Strumpet
Join date: 1 Sep 2004
Posts: 971
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12-21-2004 23:23
From: Nolan Nash Hmm, if I refuse to commute via automobile and instead choose to ride a bicycle, should I go lobby to have automobiles removed from service due to the fact their waste product kills more people per year than second hand smoke, and I am forced to breathe it? After all this is a PUBLIC space, the sidewalk or street. Bars on the other hand are not. They are privately owned establishments which you may CHOOSE to go to. When riding my bike down the road PUBLIC space is being infiltrated by noxious gases. What is the difference between say, inviting friends over to your house and allowing smoking versus inviting people into your restaurant allowing smoking? Both are privately owned land. Yes right away.
_____________________
One of the most fashionable notions of our times is that social problems like poverty and oppression breed wars. Most wars, however, are started by well-fed people with time on their hands to dream up half-baked ideologies or grandiose ambitions, and to nurse real or imagined grievances.
Thomas Sowell
As long as the bottle of wine costs more than 50 bucks, I'm not an alcoholic...even if I did drink 3 of them.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-21-2004 23:24
Cristiano and Icon, you are arguing this as if there is actual proof that smokers are endangering your health. There is no definitive science to back up that claim. Please educate yourselves. Every motorist who gets within 50 yards of you on the highway is putting your life in more danger than the smokers in the resaurants and bars you frequent. Try and let go of the self righteousness and look at the objective facts. If after that you're still in favor of outlawing smoking in private businesses then you're really no different than any garden variety holier than thou moralist. Don't complain when it's something you enjoy that's outlawed next. If we get to make laws telling people what they can and can't do based on our own dislikes, fine... don't plan on bringing any babies into restaurants, movie theaters, or airplanes unless they're wearing a ball gag 
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-21-2004 23:28
Oh, and no more country music radio stations. Sometimes I overhear it and I find it very distasteful. It sticks in my head and makes me feel ill. And white shoulders perfume has to go too. God I hate walking through a cloud of that stuff. Smells like an old ladies closet dipped in vinegar While trying to fan it away from my nose I could step in front of a bus or something.
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Garoad Kuroda
Prophet of Muppetry
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 2,989
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12-21-2004 23:41
This gives me an idea for a poll.... (an actual MEANINGFUL one too!)
I'm not 100% on either side of a huge smoking ban, but I WILL say that it's not just the health concerns that are the problem. I've been near people who, apparently, must smoke some nasty crap because I've had my eyes water/bad coughing just being near them. Heck a few people I could actually tell they smoked, because they emitted a 'smoker's aura in a 5 foot radius around them to the point that I was having reactions to it--and they didn't even have a cigarette! Point is, it can really bother some people and it's really not that easy to get away from.
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BTW
WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-21-2004 23:42
From: Garoad Kuroda Point is, it can really bother some people and it's really not that easy to get away from. I feel that way about 95% of the people on the planet 
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Garoad Kuroda
Prophet of Muppetry
Join date: 5 Sep 2003
Posts: 2,989
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12-21-2004 23:49
From: Chip Midnight I feel that way about 95% of the people on the planet Point understood!
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BTW
WTF is C3PO supposed to be USEFUL for anyway, besides whining? Stupid piece of scrap metal would be more useful recycled as a toaster. But even that would suck, because who would want to listen to a whining wussy toaster? Is he gold plated? If that's the case he should just be melted down into gold ingots. Help the economy some, and stop being so damn useless you stupid bucket of bolts! R2 is 1,000 times more useful than your tin man ass, and he's shaped like a salt and pepper shaker FFS!
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Nathan Klein
FataleKlein Island Owner
Join date: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 38
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12-21-2004 23:52
From: Nolan Nash I used to live in TX, if I remember correctly, doesn't Dallas county have some messed up drinking laws as well? Its not Dallas County I believe, but to the south along I-20 there is a county that you pass through where it is one a very small amount of counties in Texas where the sell of booz of any kind is illegal. Dallas County has the West End Market Place in it... If anyone has ever been down there knows that there is a few bars lol. As for smoking remember that tobacco is what saved us in the beginning...
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-22-2004 00:14
From: Nathan Klein Its not Dallas County I believe, but to the south along I-20 there is a county that you pass through where it is one a very small amount of counties in Texas where the sell of booz of any kind is illegal.
Dallas County has the West End Market Place in it... If anyone has ever been down there knows that there is a few bars lol.
As for smoking remember that tobacco is what saved us in the beginning... Ahhh yes, I have been to West End (love the outdoor pedestrian thing). I should have remembered that. I guess our motel on one excursion was in that area you are describing. Was frustrating after 10 hours of driving to not be able to have a drink and relax. Now, what about the *blue* laws? 
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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12-22-2004 00:19
From: Chip Midnight Oh, and no more country music radio stations. Sometimes I overhear it and I find it very distasteful. It sticks in my head and makes me feel ill. And white shoulders perfume has to go too. God I hate walking through a cloud of that stuff. Smells like an old ladies closet dipped in vinegar While trying to fan it away from my nose I could step in front of a bus or something. Don't tell it to my heart, my achey breaky heart.... Woot! *Kicks shit off boots*
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Siobhan Taylor
Nemesis
Join date: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 5,476
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12-22-2004 02:45
From: Nolan Nash Hmm, if I refuse to commute via automobile and instead choose to ride a bicycle, should I go lobby to have automobiles removed from service due to the fact their waste product kills more people per year than second hand smoke, and I am forced to breathe it? After all this is a PUBLIC space, the sidewalk or street. Bars on the other hand are not. They are privately owned establishments which you may CHOOSE to go to. When riding my bike down the road PUBLIC space is being infiltrated by noxious gases. What is the difference between say, inviting friends over to your house and allowing smoking versus inviting people into your restaurant allowing smoking? Both are privately owned land. I'd be quite happy to ban automobiles from towns and cities. It's entirely feasible to use bicycles and the like, or electric alternatives for those incapable of cycling (for whatever reason, I make no judgement). I ride a motorbike myself, for convenience (don't have a car, there's just one of me, why do I need a 5 seater), but I'm more than happy to walk or cycle in town. I mean, most people end up spending most of their driving time looking for parking spaces anyway. OK, back on topic. There's been a smoking ban in Eire for a couple of years now. Take that as your example. And Chip, nice post on the WHO document. I hadn't seen it before. One thing I didn't get though, not being a statistition, is why there needs to be a RR of 3 - i.e. an increase of 200% in order to be considered significant? Not criticising, I just don't understand that bit... maybe someone can explain it to me. And no, I don't smoke. I used to, though not much. Personally, I don't have a problem sitting in a bar with people smoking. On the other hand, if there was smoke in a restaurant I was eating in, I'd just get up and leave. If nothing else, it's a hygene thing...
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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12-22-2004 07:03
From: Chip Midnight Cristiano and Icon, you are arguing this as if there is actual proof that smokers are endangering your health. There is no definitive science to back up that claim. Please educate yourselves. Every motorist who gets within 50 yards of you on the highway is putting your life in more danger than the smokers in the resaurants and bars you frequent. Try and let go of the self righteousness and look at the objective facts. If after that you're still in favor of outlawing smoking in private businesses then you're really no different than any garden variety holier than thou moralist. Don't complain when it's something you enjoy that's outlawed next. If we get to make laws telling people what they can and can't do based on our own dislikes, fine... don't plan on bringing any babies into restaurants, movie theaters, or airplanes unless they're wearing a ball gag Chip, You are arguing this as if there is not actual proof that smokers endanger the health of others. I have done plenty of reasearch on this issue, so the implication that I need to educate myself is insulting. It has nothing to do with being "garden variety holier than thou moralist", though thanks for the label. I would say your posts disputing health effects come from a garden variety apologist. I could care less if people smoke, drink, do drugs, etc. I do however care when a choice of behavior endangers the health of someone who does not choose this vice. There is plenty of compelling, scientifically proven evidence about second hand smoke. If you research many of the contradictory studies long enough, you will see that they have been funded (here's a shock) by tobacco companies. I don't feel the need to copy and paste entire articles into a post, but here are some links specifically about the topic of the disputed studies: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3012640http://my.webmd.com/content/article/64/72529.htm?z=1837_00000_0000_ep_01On the topic of second hand smoke effects: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_10_2X_Secondhand_Smoke-Clean_Indoor_Air.asp?sitearea=PEDhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2053840.stmAdditionally, links about smoking bans in Ireland,Norway and now Italy: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3763471.stmhttp://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20041220-0602-life-italy-smokingban.html
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-22-2004 07:07
From: Siobhan Taylor One thing I didn't get though, not being a statistition, is why there needs to be a RR of 3 - i.e. an increase of 200% in order to be considered significant? Not criticising, I just don't understand that bit... maybe someone can explain it to me. Sio, this is a good explanation from the same site... From: someone As a rule of thumb, an RR of at least 2.0 is necessary to indicate a cause and effect relationship, and a RR of 3.0 is preferred.
"As a general rule of thumb, we are looking for a relative risk of 3 or more before accepting a paper for publication." - Marcia Angell, editor of the New England Journal of Medicine"
"My basic rule is if the relative risk isn't at least 3 or 4, forget it." - Robert Temple, director of drug evaluation at the Food and Drug Administration.
"Relative risks of less than 2 are considered small and are usually difficult to interpret. Such increases may be due to chance, statistical bias, or the effect of confounding factors that are sometimes not evident." - The National Cancer Institute
"An association is generally considered weak if the odds ratio [relative risk] is under 3.0 and particularly when it is under 2.0, as is the case in the relationship of ETS and lung cancer." - Dr. Kabat, IAQC epidemiologist
This requirement is ignored in almost all studies of ETS.
While it's important to know the RR, it's also very important to find the actual numbers. When dealing with the mass media, beware of the phrase "times more likely."
For instance, a news story may announce "Banana eaters are four times more likely to get athletes foot!" You find the study, read the abstract and find the RR is, indeed, 4.0. But further digging may reveal that the risk went from 1.5 in 10,000 to 6 in 10,000. Technically, the risk is four times greater, but would you worry about a jump from 0.015% to to 0.06%?
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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12-22-2004 07:08
From: Isis Becquerel
Chris even you can't truely believe that people have no other choice besides working in a smoking establishment.
Even me, eh? I didn't say people have no choice in where they work - people often work wait staff/bar jobs because of financial need, they don't have the luxury of shopping around for the perfect smoke free environment to work in. Yes, they can quit and go find another job, why should they have to?
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.
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