Smoking ban...exactly what is a public place?

Smoking ban pitched for bars, restaurants

Commissioners vow to mull, but don't see it as top priority

CARRIE LEVINE

Staff Writer

POLL | Should smoking be banned in bars, restaurants?

Smoking opponents want "No Smoking" signs in every Mecklenburg County bar and restaurant, and they're asking county commissioners to help them.

A group called Smoke Free Charlotte-Mecklenburg wants a ban similar to those in California and New York, which ban smoking in public businesses, such as restaurants. Skip Ward, the group's spokesman, said secondhand smoke is dangerous, and similar bans haven't hurt restaurant business in other cities.

"Smoking has become such a taboo and such a recognized threat," he said. "People are for (the ban)."

N.C. state law says local governments are prohibited from passing indoor air quality rules more stringent than state law. The current law bans smoking in such places as schools, hospitals and public arenas.

The legislature would have to modify the existing law or give Mecklenburg County an exemption to it, something that is unlikely to happen unless the county asks for it.

Proponents say Mecklenburg would be the first county to ask for an exemption or a change in the state law.

If the legislature were to grant the county permission to regulate smoking beyond what is currently allowed in state law, commissioners would be able to decide whether they want such a ban.

Commissioners' Chairman Parks Helms, a Democrat, said he might be willing to add such a request to the county's legislative agenda for 2005, but doesn't see it as a big priority.

"This may be important to some people, but to me, it falls way down on my list of priorities," he said. "It is a health issue, obviously, but it's not the most prevalent health issue that I think we ought to be dealing with."

Commissioner Norman Mitchell, a Democrat, said the matter came before his committee on community health and safety, and he thought it would be best referred to the full board.

Helms said the group had been placed on the agenda for Tuesday's Mecklenburg County Board of Commissioners meeting, but Ward said he was requesting a postponement until January because of the holidays.

Helms said the board still needs to decide what will be part of its list of requests to the legislature, but has plenty of time.

"We need to decide what we're going to use all of our green stamps on, what we're going to focus our energies on," he said. "There are a lot of other things that are much more important in my mind than this, but if there's someone who can make a compelling argument, I'll listen to them and I'll be sensitive to the needs."

Other board members said they were willing to listen to the group's pitch.

Dan Bishop, a member of the board's three-member Republican minority who represents a south Charlotte district, said he has an open mind, "but my instinct is no. I'm curious why we need to have a regulation."

At-large Democrat Jennifer Roberts said she has not made up her mind, but "I think there are a lot of positive things about it."

Studies have shown that restaurant attendance has increased in many cities with such a ban, she said.

"A lot of people don't go to restaurants because of secondhand smoke," Roberts said.

City Council member Susan Burgess, a Democrat, said she helped form Smoke Free Charlotte-Mecklenburg after receiving a call from a constituent last spring asking about the possibility of a ban.

"There is tremendous support for this," she said. "I would say that more than 90 percent of the people who responded to me ... were very positive."

It is just odd to me that responsible PRIVATE bar and restaurant owners would willingly lose money by allowing smoking when so many people obviously do not want it . These anti smoking folk are not trying to ban smoking in public places. That has already happened. I cannot smoke in the courthouse or in the public schools. But when did a private establishment owned by a private citizen become a public place? I do not smoke at non smoking bars and resteraunts because I respect the owner's wishes. If I do not like the policy at a private establishment, I hit them with the most powerful tool of capitalism, my wallet. I do not patronize their establishment.

Public means owned by the public...Private means privately owned and if you don't like it don't go in to the building. Or move to a country where everything is owned and regulated by the govco.

Isis - Many have tried the same argument and unfortunately lost. One of my brothers owns a bar in San Diego and he told me that if anyone is caught smoking in his establishment he will get a warning the first time, a fine the second time and they will close the establishment down the third time.

He also told me that in San Clemente, if you are caught smoking a ciggarette on the street you will be fined $150.00 for smoking on public property, but if you are caught smoking a joint, (and if that's all the grass you have on you), your fine is $50.00.

I like the idea that the decriminalized marajuana but I think they have carried the anti-smoking thing WAY to far.

My opinion on privately owned establishments is to let the market dictate the behaviour. Then again, I feel the same way about children, ie; if an establishment wishes to serve food to an adult only clientiel then this should be no problem. There are plenty of family oriented places.

Unfortunately, private establishments have been overidden on both issues.

I will ask you one thing:

Would you take a large radio to a restaurant and play your favorite song at maximum volume?

If they had a radio's only section.

But that is not the point here. The point is that a persons right to run their own business as they see fit has been removed from them.

Oh and BTW - I find out of control screaming 2 year olds that yuppie parents think are adorable far more obnoxious than either smoke or loud music.

You know I almost put the exact same logic in my post but decided I would rather not take on the mom's and dad's of the darling flu hacking little squeelers who reach over the booths to put their booger crusted fingers in my hair. Of course mom and dad have no clue after drinking a few beers. The kid will stop once the french fry dinner is put in front of them...ohh that is far more healthy. pfft

It just amazes me that people would take away the rights of private business for their own "benefit" without seeing that this could set precedent for other right revoking laws. How many of these anti smoker nazi's eat fried food. Should we tell businesses that they can no longer serve fried food because it is harmfull to our health? No. As I said before if you do not like the policies of a private establishment then don't go there. Or open venue of your very own, make all the rules and regs you want and watch the door that never opens.

Ohh and for the anti-smoking folk...prohabition never works. Reread your history books and if that is too much check out the war on drugs.

Agree about the babies!!!
Rose, the fact that it's someone's business is irrelevant.
Just because you're at home doesn't mean you can print money or kill people.
Of course a "smokers only" restaurant wouldn't hurt anyone. Until every restaurant becomes "smokers only" and we're right back where we started.
Laws exist to forbid selfish behaviors, not because they are immediately bad, but because of what would happen if everyone else did it.
Printing a few K for yourself would not significantly impact the economy. But if everyone did it, your money would have no value.
Killing a random person does not have a significant impact on the world. But if we allowed or encouraged killing, it would rapidly get to the point where I kill you just for being a friggin smoker, and everyone lives in fear, goes hide in a cave or something like that. It would be the downfall of modern society.

Anti-smoker nazi here!
I would absolutely LOVE it if people regulated the food industry as heavily as the tobacco industry!
Oh, how I wish they would do something like that!
I went on a diet recently and lost 60-70 pounds. Do you have any idea the time and effort it takes to navigate a world where lying (aka marketing) is not only allowed but encouraged?
I must have spent more time researching than exercising by an order of magnitude.

The most infuriating thing about all of this is that the health risks of second hand smoke are mostly bullshit. Only two major studies have ever been done. One by EPA and the other by WHO. Both studies showed that that increased risk of disease was low enough to fall within the margin of error of the study. In other words, we're all having smoke blown up our asses.

Laws in the US are not written for that purpose, if they were we would have a ban on idiots having children, that is selfish but they keep on churning them out. There is a big difference between illegally printing money and comparing it to murder is a bit obtuse. Smoking in a smoking establishment owned by a person who doesn't mind smoking should not be illegal. You are warned when you walk in the door. If you don't like it leave. Obviously somebody does or the bars would not make any money.

I invite you to re-read this part of my post:


If you dont like Bush, leave America. Oh, wait, you cant just leave your whole family behind, can ya. Would be a pain to find a new job as well.
If you dont like idiots go to a country without idiots. Oh, wait, there isnt one. Somebody has to plant your tobacco you know, and it doesnt take a genius to do it... the fact remains that, much as the brain cannot survive without the body, you cant live without a host of idiots supporting you.
If you dont like SPAM, then JUST DELETE IT!
If you dont like getting VIRUSES, then just go and buy NORTON!

Sorry, "If you dont like it" arguments never really work

So Chip, do tell, are your 3000 non-smoking lung cancer victims per year... all coal miners?

I don't think that if the market dictates what the establishment does that all the establishments would be smoking. In fact, I think that it would most likely be the other way around.

Smoking, to date, is not an illegal activity. Consequently it cannot be compared to murder. Though perhaps slow sucide. Nevertheless, it is legal. Many other legal substances such as alcohol, high caloric foods and even vitimans can also be questioned with regard to their safety, but still remain legal.

Studies on second hand smoke are controversal at best and much harder evidence exists that second hand alcohol is FAR more harmful than second hand smoke. (Drunk Driving, Assault etc).

The very establishments (bars) that sell a far more dangerous substance (alcohol) are not only permitted to sell the substance but exist soley for it's sale - then ban smokers. It dosen't make a lot of sense to me except that there are people who hate the idea of smoking and have worked to form a majority to crush the rights of a minority at the expense of freedom of expression for business owners.

<--------Non-Vigilent ex-smoker

Lots of things cause lung cancer Eggy. You don't hear people clamoring to ban automobiles because of their toxic emissions do you? No of course not, because everyone drives. It's only fun to point the finger when it's at others. I suggest you stop moralizing and thoroughly read the site I linked to.

So we should make laws and regulations to keep folks from getting fat or how about we take away the right to be fruitful and multiply from those who are predisposed to obesity. Your arguments do not wash.

Excuse me, how is that "MARKET DICTATES" thing any different from "WHAT WE HAVE NOW"?


The fact that there are more harmful things in this world can only mean that there are more laws out there waiting to be made.



Once again, that is a fallacy. The fact that there are other harmful things to worry about does not imply we shouldnt worry about this one. Gotta start somewhere.




Sorry, but a bar does not exist for the sale of alcohol. That's called a liquor store. A bar exists so that people may gather and have fun. As it stands now, I am effectively denied a normal social life just because I dont like to be in places where there is a lot of smoke.
I dont drink, but I would definitely like to go to a bar or dance club with my friends and KNOW that I would not be disturbed.

Chipmeister:
I dont drive and I would WHOLEHEARTEDLY ENDORSE a driving ban! Why the hell should I be forced to put up with smoke and noise just because you have a tiny penis!
There is no logic in using a 5-person vehicle to carry a single person.
And dont you call me a moralist. Strictu sensu, I have no "morals", since I try to follow a lifestyle based on solid logic rather than religious, traditional or cultural influences as you well know

Laws dictate what we can do now. In the state of California there is no smoking in any bar or restaurant, by LAW. Florida forbids smoking in any establishment that serves food. Non-food serving bars will follow suit soon I'm sure.

So my recommendation is that you move to California as quickly as you possibly can and join the "Caliban" and make more laws.



Just kidding eggy - sarcastic but respectfully so.

People who smoke need to show respect for those that don't. People who don't need to show respect for those that do.

It's as simple as that until the lawyers get involved.

Good reasoning Eggy. I guess we'd better ban all cars... in fact all modes of transportation. They all kill people. Stairs have to go too. People fall down them. Showers and bathtubs are especially dangerous so better start regulating how people bathe themselves. Can't really have food either because of the risk of choking. Pfft.

As a part time bartender from time to time in my life I couldn't agree more about screaming children. I have seen this too many times and it makes me want to run and hide in the walk in cooler.

I find it alarming that the government is now stepping in and dictating that people cannot smoke in a private establishment. Might as well get used to it, smoking bans have now been passed in the two most populous counties in the state I live in, and they go into effect in March.

Duluth, MN was first in this state to pass such a law and some landmark restaurants have closed down as a result. Not enough business. One of them had been in business since the 1920s. Sigh.

For the record, I am a non-smoker. I tried to start a few times, but it literally makes me so sick I cannot function. Now ganja on the other hand....

I feel with proper ventilation that smoking is fine in bars and restraunts. I used to be a big smoker and would go to bars that didn't have a way to pull out the smoke. Maybe a tighter regulation on ventiliation systems or how the smoke is handled would be a wiser choice. I mean bars lose a ton of money from people who can't smoke not going for just that reason. An investment of fans/blowers/whatever that can pull the smoke out of the room efficiently and quickly would make a world of difference.

I don't mind smokers since I used to be one , but going to a bar now is rough on my eyes and I feel like I'm somewhat smoking by just being in there. Waking up in the morning with the bad taste in my mouth, smoke smelling clothes, and minor sore throat brings back a lot of bad smoking memories for me.

I couldn't imagine actually working in a place like that for hours and hours.

Oh and why is it that the only person at a table not smoking is usually where the smoke flows to? LOL

Why don't you stop posting and go read that site. Guess you don't want any facts to interfere with your "right" to dictate to others how to live based on your own subjective tastes, eh? You are moralizing, and I don't like it. Please report to the extermination chamber

Poetic justice