Patriot Act deux

I didn't make it one paragraph into the patriot act's newly released little brother before having to vomit from the complete lack of regard for civil liberties. If this comes to pass say goodbye to America the land of the free and hello to dictatorship. If you have not read the patriot act 2 and you are interested in preservation of freedoms both for America and the countries affected by America, please read it in full. Take the time now before it is too late. If Bush makes it back inot office we will see the largest shift of power from the people to an oppressive government that America has ever been party to.

I am almost too upset and angry to write but once you've read it (not just heard of it but actually read the powers that it gives over to both the president the FISA and the Attorney General). I would love to hear others thoughts on it.

Here is the link to the pdf...pay special attention to the changes of definition and the changes to the policies regarding law enforcement protection.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/Story_01_020703_Doc_1.pdf

Isis - All of it concerns me, but what concerns me most is that they want to broaden the definition of Foreign Terrorist to include whom ever they wish to call a terrorist. Does that mean that anyone who disagrees with the government could be subject to this?

Certaintly is something to consider. Could a person who protests the war in Iraq or is caught smoking a joint in their front yard be defined as a terrorist and as such be subject to imprisonment without representation, loss of American Citizenship, and confiscation of property?

Meaning that the government can walk into your house and search it, listen to and record your private conversations & correspondence, view your medical records and view your financial records all without a warrant.

This is frightening and something that we should write both our congressman and senators about.

Rose

I know...it blew my mind... I keep rereading those definitions and the broadening of powers for local law enforcement. I have written everyone including Micheal Moore. What did you think of the section 106...I hate political speak but this one was pretty cut and dry. I do not want the term Good Faith being used when lives are at stake.

God I hope so

I am thinking it might be necessary for American's to request UN intervention in these elections and an oversight committee for the FISA/Dept of Homeland Security AKA Rummyland...DisneyLand without the right to speak, think or act and the rides are all scary.

Phil...How could you say that. Have you even read the Patriot Act I or II? I am glad that you are so generous to give up your freedom to the government for an illusion of safety. I am not that generous.

Me too. Hey, why does your avatar depict a suicide bomber?

Do you support suicide bombing? I am scared...of you.

If any of you people are foreign powers, make sure you dont talk to me please.

I know it is fun to be comical. Especially in situations as heady and depressing as a complete loss of personal privacy. Is this really not an issue worth discussing? Was Patriot Act I just a political ploy for MM? Are we truely not concerned with the vocabulary used in this life altering pdf?

Well my view is carried in someone's sigline can't remember who
"Ya can't skin it so feck it"

I think the question now becomes. What are you so worried about? What are you trying to hide?

I'm definitely not trying to hide 380 tons of explosives. That's for sure.

How much does an elephant weigh?

hmmm about a ton and half but nowhere near the bang for buck

The PA II draft is pretty scary. I wonder if that passes, how soon after the element that has control of both our governments will upgrade bill c-36 ( aka, Anti-Terrorism Act)

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/chambus/house/bills/government/C-36/C-36_3/C-36TOCE.html

Why is it when freedom and rights of privacy comes into question there is always the guy who asks what I am hiding? So you are ok with a dictatorship...move to Afghanistan then. I love freedom. I do not need to hide anything from the government but I sure as hell don't want them to have the unalienable right to peep under my sheets.

Jack, if we allow this to come to fruition there is no telling what the next step will be. One thing is for sure, we will all have to get the verichip. It will no longer be an option. If the people of this country want to choose the "I have nothing to hide so search me without a warrant and do not give me the right of representation" over our forefathers vision of states rights and personal sovereignty then so be it...If Bush gets back in office I am gone. This is not the country for me...not when everything that makes it so wonderful is being pulled from beneath my feet.

Well, Isis, you have to factor in the fact that law works both ways. Not only can it be used against people, it can be used against courts. In some of these cases a foreign spy or terrorist can have rights that they dont deserve. Without writing out these restrictions certain unsavory people can fight for a persons right where they really shouldnt have any. Not just anyone can be called a terrorist, read the definition.

A case that this might apply to, is someone who is funding a terrorist organization and the only way law enforcement was able to get information was through some currently illegal electronic means. In this case a lawyer working for the group could get the case thrown out on a technicality.

Of course there is always the chance for abuse and that is why they try to define who they are talking about carefully. It doesnt say a Us citizen that is smoking a joint, it says one that is engaged in contact with a foreign power or organization.

As far as 106 is concerned, this is to allow a defence for an agent that has aquired some important bit of info normally illegal with authorization of the pres or attorny gen. I dont think the president of the united states is going to be telling an agent to go find someone smoking a joint.

Basically they are trying to keep it from taking 3 months to get an order to be able to investigate a possible terrorist backing organization or person. Beurocracy is a bitch, as I'm sure anyone that has ever worked for a corporation knows.

Verichip? Who the hell said you have to get a verichip?

First,concerning the verichip, I didn't say that it has already happened but I do predict it will...and secondly where have you been? When our government already improperly uses the powers that it has against the people, are you really going to say that they are not going to use these powers as a method of control. Maybe you should read further. And while you are at it read Pat I. As I said before if you do not find this scary maybe this isn't the country for you. What is terrorism...is the definition in there...I read it and didn't find it...but it is quite obvious that Americans have no fear for their freedom. We think the government exists in our best interest regardless of the facts at hand.

The very first section discusses "lone wolf" terrorists to be included in the "foriegn powers" definition. This broadens the scope to you and me.

"This provision would expand FISA's definition of foriegn power to include all persons, regardless of whether they are affiliated with an international terrorist group who engage in international terrorism."

There is no definition of international terrorism supplied within this article.

Lol, I'm not the scared one here. I'm not scared of terrorist, but I also dont believe they deserve first amendment rights.

You know untill they institute a military control of the people, that this will never get out of hand. Of course there are abuses, but that's why we have organizations like the aclu to fight these abuses. As soon as the governement gets rid of them, then I will start to worry, untill then we are still a free society. Untill they take away your right to be paranoid about this and spout it on forums then we are still free. I wouldnt worry so much.

Methinks you aslo believe Michael Moores stuff more than he does. He knows his stuff is made for shock value to put out a point, you seem to take it as word for word truth.

I know laws get abused, but the thing you dont seem to realise is that it has been happening all along, not just since this patriot act. As soon as it is abused and the abuses are told about to the people of the united states, I have faith that the free people of the united states will get pissed off and tell their government where to stick it.

Remember that 50% of the US is just as scared of your views as you are of theirs. It's not fair to think that only yours should be considered.

PS I smoke pot. I dont like Bush either. I am not conservative. I do have faith in US citizens to bitch when they get sick of something just as you are now. I just dont think it has gone as far as you think.

Your turn.

PSS DONT tell me what country is for me. I am a free citizen to choose my country and I happen to like this one.

So I don't realize what is going on? Alright Wiggs you are obviously the superior intellect in the US. We should all just listen to you and calm down. Lets not worry that states rights are erroding and personal freedoms are being slashed in a pace unprecedented. Thank you for calming my unfounded paranoia.

Im sorry I didnt even make a comment on who this "lonewolf" describes.

It doesnt say any US citizen. It clearly defines it as a person who is contact with a foreign power or terrorist organization.

So, insurance is a private business. They can require what they want. If you dont like it dont get insurance.

No, they cant make you get a chip in your baby.

It's called capitalism. If it sells, it will be sold.

For how long, though?

For how long not?