Taxation Without Representation?

I agree with you Kris

I don't think LL should even be kicking the idea of "tax" around. How about a VOLUNTARY "tax" for people who are interested in helping to sponsor community events? Of course this is a leading question, because then you get to the question of exactly WHAT is considered a community event, what is "educational" or for the benefit of all, yadda yadda yadda.

As for having a "job" or not having a "job" in-world, well that's completely up to the citizen now, ain't it? I am here to have FUN, plain and simple. Nobody's gonna even TRY to dictate to me what I should or shouldn't do, can or can't do in world (TOS Violations the obvious exception). If that involves an activity that actually pays me in-world currency, all the better. But I am perfectly ok with people who just want to be consumers and not contributors, after all, they did PAY already to get in the world, so they should be treated the same as any powerful land baron or clothing designer.

(Great song BTW Willow! w00t!)


I agree completely with that statement Kris.

And Blake, by NO MEANS is SL a "mirror" of the real world! I mean come on, you CAT'T be serious! So if the real world has taxes that means we have to have it here too?? Bull-fucking-shit! The real world has septic systems too, but I certainly don't wanna be seeing or smelling THAT $shit here in SL!

Anyways, have a great day and shake it baby you won't break it!

Arti

/clap clap Marker! Great post!

Greed is good? Not. It is that kind of thinking that has messed up society and the economy in the real world. Suppose you were handicapped, unable to pull your own weight and that sort of thinking was completely the rule of the day..you would be laying in a gutter dead because no one cared because you couldn't pull your own weight. All I can say about people like you is what comes around goes around and when you lose it all you are just like everyone else.

Also....no one is required to work in SL...for some it is a glorified Yahoo and that's all it will be. I agree if they don't pay they shouldn't get handouts either because it is a game and you get what you pay for but, you are a narrow minded biggot for the words you use to get your point across. Newsflash..SL is not RL..it is a Game..and just because you feel everyone in SL should have a job doesn't mean it will be so. I come onto SL to have fun with my friends not to have no life outside the internet and make money off pixels. I think it's silly and it won't last anyway.. What you gonna do when the real govt starts sticking their fingers in it and taxing you for the income you make off the game? Are you reporting your revenue like you are supposed to do legally anyway? Probably not. Eventually that will change. Can't wait to see the posts here when that happens..because it will.

"Voluntary Tax" or in other words a "Gift" is irrelevant with this issue. Taxation is put into place to enforce critical funding which without it will detrementally effect an Economy negatively without it. This is a critical Issue which will have severe consequences on the outcome of Community growth as a whole and the Economy.

Blake...this is complete nonesense in the game. We pay for the game already in real money. The role of LL is to to provide a place to play that is enjoyable and worth our hard earned bucks. If Phillip is seriously looking at doing this then there has to be a give to it too. You can't just go in and say "Hi, I'm taking a percentage of what you have so other people can enjoy them selves" . that is simply not going to fly.
Yeah....they do it in the real world....but let's look at this in the light of the whole idea of SL is to get away from the real world!!!

I refuse to prop up the club owners with my cash. There are few that I attend and even then I don't go for the cash...I go for the people and such. The Clubs are just going to have to adapt....heck people on this world have been doing that for centuries.

Maybe you didn't notice, but creating and running places where you can go ahang out with the people you go for cost a BIG buck of money. Clubs are basically the only business in Second Life that needs employees and a big number of them, this is the reason why they can hardly be self sustaining.

Ok, not a voluntary tax, Blake, but there are a few ways of doing things, arent there, without having to resort to taxing everyone so those without cash who want to spend cash without bringing it into the game can do so? We can't really all be so blinkered as to think this is the only way?

Firstly, if you insist on equating things to the real world to get what you seemingly want - money for nothing - then you have to consider the real world equivalents in all aspects pertaining to your argument. Where I'm from, clubs don't get handouts from the government. They get money from their patrons.

So there is your first choice: pay a small cover charge to fund your entertainment. Which seems kind of logical, and will deal with many of the worries that people have over event funding being pulled. It's kinda like subscribing to cable or satellite tv and then them charging you extra for certain channels, or paying your ISP for net access, but then certain sites charging you an entrance fee. If thats what you WANT to see, you have to pay. With your own money.

The second option is a 'voluntary tax' in the form of sponsorships; you can sponsor a location or event and help cover their costs. This already happens with events, with sponsors supplying prize money or prizes. I know this, because I and my friends sponsor events myself. Why can't this continue or increase?

Both of these present a FAIR scenario where either the people attending the event are paying, or someone is paying on their behalf because they have a vested interest.

What it doesnt mean is that everyone in Second Life who wants to just play the game their way has to fork over cash for your pleasure. You have no right to it, community or no.

And lastly, going back to your other point that if I'm not willing to pay your way I should leave SL because I'm not taking part in the community you think we all MUST be a part of, you mentioned I ought to go play NWN?

I do. Now imagine if I'm playing it with you? You want to stand back, watch me make all the kills, get the treasure and level up, and then you want a proportional cut of my profits because you 'deserve it'?

I'd give you the same answer there as I do here. If you WANT your own money... go get it! But you don't NEED your own money, hence you don't NEED to work for it. My money. I earned it. It's mine. And fortunately, since this is a game and not real life, that still holds true in the minds of the majority. Which is why I shouldn't let narrow minded freeloaders wind me up!

Weather funding comes from Taxation or monthly fees, it is a necessity of an Economy which intails Entertainment.

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

" Where is all this socialist bullshit welling up from? Make the attendees pass a damn hat to take up a collection for events. Events paid for by those that attend that event... sounds like the logical way to do it."
-Ghoti
__________________

Ghoti, you make the most sense so far and you said it short, sweet and to the point without attacking anyones viewpoint! Very well done *Applause*

Nice to know we have a sensible neighbor with a keen mind HAHA

Ok Blakey, when you started SL did not I and several others shower you with encouragement, content AND $Lindens ? Or is my memory serving me wrong (it happens)? If this statement is true, where is your beef now ? We gave you a good and solid start. What else is it you need ?

Clubs are a different issue in Virtual reality compared to the real world however, people do not consume drink to help fund the Club, the only other alternative other than taxation would be for Covercharges which for those that cannot afford it may have an impact on Club funding. Mostly new people start out going to Clubs as they do not have enough knowledge yet to begin their skills in Secondlife. Socializing is important to start these new people off on the right foot to become a productive community member within Secondlife and Clubs provide that as do all fun and Entertainment Events. It has to be funded.

Hold on a sec....one of the reasons that clubs are expensive in L$ to run is that they have raffles, money balls and contests. I admit these are costly to run. Are they an absolute neccesity??? In my opinion, no. If a club has atmosphere as in decor and such, a decent stream and is fairly lag free then it should be able to draw visitors.
If you have to bribe your clients to come to your club then there is something missing. You should be able to come up with events that are a draw. Add that to the ingredients I stated above and the club should draw.

Yeah this is a simplistic view of how it should work. I fully expect to get pounded with the usual "Start your own club with that ideal and see how long it lasts" . Face it people you are going to have to adapt, rethink, adjust....

really? how very convenient for your argument.



You can socialize anywhere in Second Life without paying a dime. You can create your own impromptu events without spending a dime.



I've just presented you two ways that dont involve me paying for you to go to a club. You ignored them, and every other point I took the time to make. As usual, your response ignores everything that's been said and just restates your original point yet again.

I guess that means that words are wasted on you, the conversation is over and I should go back to ignoring you? Okies.

I am pretty sure my annual membership would cover the cost of the stipend I receive and even if it doesn't, I think it goes a good way towards it. Stipends are not welfare, however many people love to call it that.

NO to tax of any kind. We are in SL not RL for heavens sake. I see absolutely no reason why clubs should not charge entry. If you go to a bingo or tringo event, you add to the pot and clubs should be no different.

Everyone should get a job in SL? What do you think SL is? People on here can do what they damn well please and if that means nothing more than socialising and going to the clubs, so be it. I am just over a month old and although I am enjoying learning new skills and creating plants and flowers which I may at some time decide to try and sell, I will work on that in my own time and own way, not because I am told to get a job. I worked solidly in RL for 40 years without a break until I was retired medically and I will not be dictated to in SL on this subject.

I disagree with the financial changes being made, more so that we have not been given sufficient time to discuss them prior to introduction but we will all adapt. I for one will be buying nothing further in SL unless its for uploading textures and eventually buying a piece of land for the flower/landscaping shop which my partner and I hope to open eventually.

Bottom line - I want to enjoy SL and for it not to become a drudge.

Alexa

It isn't what I need as an individual, it's what the community needs and wants. That is not my decision.

Blake, trust me, the sky ain't falling! LOL WTF are you talking about, Critical Funding??? It's not like SL has to defend it's borders from some VR Evil Empire! LOL Quit being such a doom-and-gloomer and ride the wave bro!

Silly us, Lecktor! We forgot Blake speaks not for himself but for the silent majority....

...Who are apparently all unreasonable freeloaders who demand that we give them our cash so they can have fun spending it.

They must be really silent, this silent majority, because apart from spokesman Blake, I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually suggest this was what they wanted.

Covercharge is fine, if it will support Events. How much do you propose a Club charges in relation to fairness of newcommers? And what kind of prizes should a club offer to attract these people?

I know Kris, I am finally realizing it is futile to debate with him at all.

Whatever the damn market will bear mmmmmkay??????????

Er... just because I suggested that they charge a cover charge doesnt mean I want to balance their books for them or architect their business model. Well, not without payment, anyway. If they want to play club owners, thats the kind of thing they need to find out for themselves.

I would think that, like most things, the prices will set themselves. If your club is a big prim box with a money giver and lag, then you're not going to be able to charge a whole lot for entrance, and I doubt you'll find many willing sponsors. If you are the proud owner of a cohesive entertainment experience like the Gravity SpaceStation, I imagine you could charge far more, and that sponsors would fall over themselves for an affiliation. If people don't come, either your prices are too high or you don't provide an experience they want.

Lecktor, do you go to Clubs? You know what, it doesn't matter one way or another? Because whatever the decision, the outcome is going to be what it is. You guys will make the choice.

Ok I'll stab the horsemeat one more time. In answer to your question, yes I attend a few well known spots in world to be with friends. What is that point ? I will still attend these facilities whatever the changes affect. Should I charge for attendance to Tribal Drums ?? Regardless of your answer, I won't be instilling that. And you're right and I'm glad you finally realized it..... it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Actually, insofar as clubs can't make money from the sale of food, alcohol and etc. -- and insofar as they can't offer these things to entice people to visit them -- they DO need money from somewhere in order to sustain themselves. Since they can't offer food or alcohol, it's probably unlikely that they can charge much in the way of cover charges ... and how would that work, anyway? What happens if your system crashes, and you log back in to find yourself outside of the club? Do you pay another cover charge to get back in? What if Random Griefer Idiot with a Gun #513 wanders in and starts shooting people out of the place? Sure, club security deals with them (and we've become very good at that ), but then what? Do the people knocked out of the place have to pay to get back in again?

Ridiculous.

It's been stated time and time again in this thread that SL isn't the real world, and that's absolutely true. But then in the same breath comes the expectation -- from the same people saying this -- that clubs in SL should be able to sustain themselves in the same way that RL clubs do, and that's a ridiculous expectation for any number of reasons.

Unlike some of the other people here, I'm not going to claim that I understand the ins and outs of economics or even the inner workings of all aspects of SL well enough to really grasp the differences between the SL economy and RL economies. I'm just going to say that precisely *because* SL isn't RL -- and precisely *because* SL clubs aren't RL clubs -- the clubs in SL need some kind of funding from SOMEWHERE, whether it's from taxes or simply from money conjured out of nowhere by Linden Labs for the sole purpose of keeping them afloat. That or they need to cost far less to maintain, or even nothing at all. Otherwise, due to the vast differences between SL and RL, they will die.

Now you may not care about that. I do, but maybe you're saying, "So what? I spend 90 percent of my time in my own world and couldn't care less what any of the rest of you do!" That's all well and good, but it really doesn't matter what you want or what I want, either. What really matters is what's best for the game -- more specifically, what's best for Linden Labs' profits. You may pay nearly $200 per month to play -- and that's a lot -- but there are any number of people who also pay monthly fees (even if most are far less) who spend a significant amount of time enjoying events and clubs and who will enjoy the game significantly less if they die off. And who may then quit the game, taking their monthly fees with them.

And while you may question my above assertion -- to wit, that a significant number of people, including people who pay monthly fees, visit clubs -- really, what do YOU know anyway if you're never anywhere in the game but your own island? Psh. I see these people every day. All too frequently, we're so packed full of them that we can only get more people in by teleporting them in because the region's full ... and teleport them in we do.

But maybe, after all, SL will transform from a highly social game into a game only for serious builders paying huge monthly fees to hide out on their islands. And maybe you don't care about that, either. That's fine. Just bear in mind that if that happens, the businesses owned by so many of you monthly-fee-paying builders -- you know, the ones that sell goods to all of us unimportant social non-builders? Yeah. You'll find those businesses pull in far less money when there's virtually nobody left in the game to buy your products ... save other builders who are already making their own things and never leave their own islands anyway. Ditto for people who own apartment complexes, since there's nobody to rent those apartments to if the only people left own their own islands.

There are NO "self-made" men or women in the world of SL, any more than there are in the real world. Their existence is nothing more than popular myth. SL business owners, much like real business owners, build their empires on the foundations of the communities around them, whether they have anything to do with those communities or not. If those foundations crumble and disappear, the businesses will inevitably follow.

Then all that's left is a dogged handful of high-monthly-fee builders who just build for the sake of building. I wonder whether Linden Labs could even support itself on their fees alone.