A question for an anti-Evolutionist

There is no such thing as Free Will, but the savvy shopper will know how to get it at wholesale price. Only suckers pay retail.

are you kidding on this one too?

or are you just that poorly informed?

neither

....

Okay. A: The universe is currently modeled as being open-ended. There is a lot of debate, however, and people design experiments to test various assumptions all the time. Scientists recently found conditions that could only be explained by Dark Matter under the current model, and whcih were hailed in the popular media as 'proof' of Dark Matter. I hate the way the popular media handles Science stories, really, truly. ugh.

B: People's behaviour is affected by their brain chemistry, period. Insane people may, or may not, have imbalanced or irregular or abnormal brain chemistry. They may have perfectly fine brain chemistry and simply have been raised badly, or have a genetic predisposition, or physical brain damage, or have purely psychological issues. I know that someone with the right EMI equipment and a bit of trialanderror can turn any sane person into a complete psychopath by suppressing parts of the brain's electrical activity and heightening others. Break out yer tinfoil hats now. No, I am not a medical doctor, and this is not medical advice.

C: Next person who attempts to equivocate humanism/science/biology with amorality or Nazi Germany gets a clue-by-four across the parietal lobes.

So are you saying that if I injected you with heroin that it's possible for you to adapt yourself to your body functions and simply choose to not get high?

that wouldn't be insanity now would it?

I don't think it's so simple.

A lot of people who suffer, say, from depression have made bad choices. Those consequences of those bad choices have - surprise - made them feel depressed. So, yeah, there's a lot you can do to change those behaviors without medication.

That said, it's been known for a long time now that a depressed person has a different brain chemistry. Whether depression altered the chemistry, or chemistry brought on the depression, is still a matter of some debate.

Schizophrenia, as another example, has been associated with brain tissue loss or unusal brain wave patters. I won't pretend to be an expert on schizophrenia, but I do know that there are mountains of medical research to back up the fact that schizophrenia isn't just the construct of a lazy person who doesn't want to go to work.

Either way, pills that help restore chemical balance will go a long way in bringing that person to a point where they can learn to make better decisions and learn better coping techniques. For some people, learning those skills may be enough, but I wouldn't say that's true of everyone and of every condition.

It's not a choice - it's what happens to everyone. Thus, higher doses leading to toxicity - overdose - in chronic users.

Everyone will be intoxicated.

What they are capable of while intoxicated is a different story.

I'm not a doctor, and this is not medical advice.

My point is that much of what we call insanity is caused by brain chemistry. The person's brain functions in a different way than a "sane" person's does, so their behaviour is different.

The behaviour of these people is directly caused by the chemistry in their brain just the same as a person that is high on herion.

In both cases, the person's behaviour is not a choice. It's controled by the chemistry in their brain.

since you are not kidding - Ill respond.

Though im so incredulous im uncertain how.

First off theres a big difference between such disorders which you can learn cope with (to whatever degree of sucess) such as ADD and Depression...

And actual Insanity. Depression or ADD are not insanity. They are illnesses.

As far illnesses liek ADD and depression, Coping without medication is extremely difficult. And potentially more harmful than any medication involved. It is not the result of nor a cuase of Laziness.

As for the true certifiably insane people such as someone with a Psychosis , their inabilty to be normal is not lazy either. If they are physchotic to the point they are incable of stoping a compulsion any amount of drive or enthusiasm on earth isnt going to change their behavior.

however since heroin is an outside modifier, adaptation would not be possible due to limited exposure. A person with say chronic depression can change they way they think and live by simply adapting their thought process.

It really has nothing to do with humanism, or relativism. Everything in the universe operates on cause and effect. Some things will simply be more effective at achieving particular aims than others. If that weren't true, I could sit here and stare at my navel for the rest of my life and have an equal chance of survival as anyone else. That's close to an impossibility, unless some calamity wiped everyone else out before I starved to death. Acknowledging cause and effect in no way equates to a belief that anything goes. "Do unto others..." is a cornerstone of humanistic thought but it's motivated by practicality as much as an abtract notion of being a good person. Good and bad are subjective, and environmental pressures and competition for resources play a huge role. Would Catholicism make sense in an asteroid colony where at some point every new set of lungs strained the environment beyond capacity?

The world is full of different types of governments, cultures, and behavioral norms. If social structures and behaviors didn't shift and change according to evolutionary forces and weren't molded by subjective opinions, we'd already all live by the same rules because they'd be what works universally to our benefit - or, more likely, we'd already be extinct.



I agree with you about there being lots of good ideas in the New Testement. I just don't feel the bible deserves credit for anything more than making some keen observations. Truisms aren't invented. That we learn from our experiences and mistakes and that our cultural norms change as a result is a given. It only becomes anthropomorphic when we start making value judgements.



I actually agree that what comes around goes around, though I attribute nothing spiritual to it, and I don't in any way consider it an absolute or something that extends beyond death. I think if someone is rotten to everyone they meet, chances are good people are going to be rotten right back, but that rotten person doesn't have a greater chance of having a piano fall on his head because of it (unless his behavior involves being rotten to piano movers). The bottom line is that cooperation and peaceful coexistence are beneficial more often than not (resources permitting).



I don't see any need for the supernatural. I see a great need for philosophy. Jesus was a great philosopher. So were many other humans throughout history. Behavioral and social norms are driven by culture, by human needs and desires, environmental pressures, and by human thought. If the only justification we can find for not annihilating each other is something supernatural or ritualistic, we're truly and deeply screwed. Religion has a spotty track record when it comes to always working in favor of survival and prosperity or intelligently adjusting to environmental pressures. Just ask the Easter Islanders.

Give me the practical over the spiritual any day.

sorry but this part is a little off base. Potentially anything is more harmful than the alternative. I find coping with my depression easier without medicine, I also refuse to have my happiness fed to me in pill form. It is laziness when someone who is perfectly capable of mending themselves would rather gain happiness from Merck instead of figuring out what is making them depressed and rectifying it.

What about more serious illnesses, like schizophrenia or psychosis? Can Charles Manson just choose to be sane? If so, why doesn't he?

Go spend time in a home for mentally handicapped people, you will see that even though they may have a misfiring synapse or two they still live active happy lives. What makes them different from "normal" people? They, depending on the affliction, have hugely varying brain chemistry yet they have adapted to it.

he isn't insane, he was ruled sane enough to stand trial

That would hold true if every person is an ubermensch. But we're not. Most of us are just plain human, and many of us need some extra help.

there is help that doesn't involve drugs

Do you mean mentally ill or mental retardation here?

I have a cousin who is severely mentally ill. He lives in a group home for the "mentally handicapped." I wouldn't say he is either active or happy.

potentially both

Of course there is, but why disallow any useful tool out of hand? If it works, use it. Use them all. There's no extra prize you get for arriving at a place of mental health this way or that. Simply getting there is the reward.

there was a reward when I did, it was self satisfaction. I was able to look back and say "I did it without any artificial aides"

Okay Billy you spent so much time disagreeing with my disagreement you missed my point entirely.

My point was illnesses like Depression and ADD which people can survive untreated and still be productive -

Are different than Insanity - which your glossing over entirely.

for examples

- Many Schitzophrenics Halucinate < are they simply too lazy to make the visions go away?>

- Many Psychotics are paranoid < maybe with some happy happy thoughts they can make those feelings go away?

-Those people with multiple personality disorder just need to tell those other personalties to shut up so they can get on with their lives.


_______________________________

If your point is that the prevailance of those with disorders like depression anxiety disorder and ADD can be handled without medication - at least your possition would be arguable. But when you claim theres no such thing as insanity you are just ignoring reality.

My mother worked in a hospital for the mentally ill - she had a patient that told her the bars on the windows were there to keep the crazy people out.

Hi, Finning!

Since things are winding down here, I was hoping we could have this conversation without anyone getting nasty; but I can't think of any way to tone down my rhetoric. It seems like it is the essence of my position that offends you. So I will let it go.

Have you had a chance to see Eureka yet? It started out a little shaky, but it is growing on me. The silliest thing is that they have scientist saying things like "Well, life is energy and that energy has to go somewhere when we die..." Nice try. They should get you in to review the scripts.

Maybe we'll see each other in-world.

--Allie

Though I took issue with this post earlier, I was touched by it. It reminded me of a poem I heard years ago, which I've tried to reproduce below from memory (apologies to Buck and Juanita Coulson for any mistakes I've made). I thought you might like it.

The thread has wandered off topic, so I think I'll check out now. It's not clear when you and I will talk again; so thanks for your perspective.

--Allie

==snip==

REMINDER

The Stardrive was discovered on a planet in Orion
by a race that built their cities when the Earth was flaming gas.
They swept out through the star lanes at the dawning of creation
and a billion years of Empire came to pass.

Their successors were a mighty race of insects from Arcturus.
They didn't have the Stardrive but they didn't ever die.
They smashed the dying Empire and then settled down to rule it
and another billion years, or so, went by.

The insects were supplanted when the Drive was rediscovered.
They couldn't halt rebellion if they couldn't catch their foes.
So the Tzen became the rulers: they were reptiles from Centaurus
and they worshipped the black swamps from which they rose.

But the Tzen were few in number and the Universe was mighty.
They felt their hard-won Empire start to slip between their claws.
Others fought for domination and the Universe was chaos
and on Earth a creature shaped flint with its paws.

Now the Old Ones are forgotten and the insects but a memory.
Man stands upon the threshhold of an Empire of his own.
But remember, mighty Earthman, there were others here before you
and still others who will follow when you're gone.

--Buck and Juanita Coulson