A question for an anti-Evolutionist

Billybob, I've never seen you post anything that would make me feel compelled to flame you. Disagree maybe, but not flame.

Poetry depends a lot on what is important to you. These days we put a lot of stake in the Copernican model of the solar system. If the authors of the Bible thought less about that, and more about man's relationship to God, I find it hard to fault them.

God is a metaphor. God is a metaphor for the creator of all things. And the creator of all things is the master of creation. So what's to argue?

Well, you can argue that the universe has no creator; but I would say that this argument only has virtue to the extent that the notion of "creator" is limited by our limited ability to comprehend reality.

Most people, when they diss the notion of God, seem to assume that he is just a sort of super-human, maybe ten times as smart, which is what enables the supposed logical arguments against His existence. You know, like "If God is supposed to be so smart, how come he ... ". As if someone a billion times smarter than any of us wouldn't occasionally come to different conclusions as to what made sense.

Clearly the Judeans believed that if they behaved properly they would benefit from the good will of God; and if they behaved badly they would be punished. This is the message of most of the Old Testament.

Personally, I think that that is the message that God wants us most to know; and what we'd better get into our heads before it gets much cheaper to sterilize the planet.

But if the Judeans were sometimes fuzzy on exactly what was good behavior (or for that matter what constituted the good will of God) they were, after all, only human. We're sometimes fuzzy on those issues as well.

--Allie

For the love of Pete. You can't even spell "experiences" correctly and we're supposed to accept you as an authority on the existence of God? Give me a break.

get over yourself

God does not exist.

Whatever, labotomy lady

I think you nailed it with that last sentence. What's to argue is whether or not it's necessary to anthropomorphize the as yet unknown.

Exactly. There's not a damn person in this forum with the credentials to anecdotally claim the existence of a God. With that said, Chip Midnight is always right. Seriously, listen to him you monkey-like subhumans.

God made you, if He doesn't exist, what does that say about your existence?

she's my imaginary friend DER!

It's not a matter of "not enough" with the material.

It's more a matter that teh idea of a universe without Deity is simply alien, not in concept, but in perception. It is a matter of something simply being so.

However I would say that Atheists are more easily satisfied with their surroundings as explaining their experiences. Atheist-aligned thinking, however, leaves no space to account for many of my experiences. SO it simply is not adequate.

I would have to conclude that the premise of "God made you" must be false, since it leads to a paradoxical conclusion.

But you stopped reading in the middle of my argument. It is the urge to anthropomorphize that sends us astray. As the Kabbalists would say, God is not human.

It's a sophomoric exercise to find the contradictions in the Bible. It's a more challenging exercise (and potentially more rewarding) to find the truth.

I have a friend who said recently that the question of God's existence is really just a proxy for the question of whether any part of us will survive death. Maybe that's what's to argue.

Or maybe just to wait and see. The nice thing about that particular argument is that nobody is going to be disappointed in the end.

--Allie

Don't underestimate man's place in creation either. Surely the evolution of a creature capable of holding a vision of the future and working towards it is a milestone, possibly the most significant, in the history of the universe.

Now maybe we weren't the first, but then I would just stretch the definition of human (or invent a new term) to cover the others!

--Allie

That you're incapable of comprehending what "begging the question" means?

You're presuming that sentience, memory, imagination are special -

Also that the (rest of the) universe has an independent notion of history,

also that the (rest of the) universe marks milestones,

also that the (rest of the) universe cares.

Anthropomorphisation is a slippery slope.

We dont exist -

Not only that but if those who believe in creationism are right and Life only exists on earth - we dont exist even moreso!

Since someone mentioned Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy -

THE UNIVERSE:
Population - Zero

It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination.

Sure I do, it means circular reasoning. The truth of the conclusion is assumed in order to justify the premises. ("The fool says there is no God, because anyone who says there is no God is a fool."

Well see, any notion of that kind of truth - that there's a certain way to act to avoid punishment - is anthropomorphic. Those values with respect to their aspects beyond what aids or inhibits survival are purely subjective. They depend on culture, tradition, opinion, hopes, fear, and on a more basic level, the way our brains work. Anything we define in those terms is automatically an anthropomorphism. In other words, anything beyond the simple notion that the universe may have been created by an intelligent agent of some sort. The idea of universe as judge isn't without merit since our actions do determine our survival, but once we extend it beyond that metric into the more esoteric we're projecting human values into the void. Nature is full of survival strategies that would be repugnant in human terms.

As for the truth in the bible, setting aside its subjective nature, there's much good there, though nothing I can credit the bible with inventing (beyond its mythological framework). I think it has a lot of value as a tool for understanding human nature. I personally find nothing in it of value for understanding the universe and the unknown.



I absolutely agree with your friend. In my view, god and the supernatural represent our hopes, fears, and prejudices projected. Many (maybe most) people seem to find that a useful tool for wrapping their brains around the human condition. I find it to be an obfuscation and ultimately a barrier between perception and truth.

As for what comes next, I'm definitely in the wait and see camp. It would certainly be wonderful to wake up somewhere else, especially if it came with perception not bound by human limitations. On the other hand there's nothing less demanding or less stressful than nothingness. Seems like a good deal either way, provided I don't wake up in a lake of fire. If it turns out there is a god and he's that cruel and vengeful, well, that makes a life of thumbing my nose at him a life well spent.

I <3 You!

hmm well if thats the case, you and I will be right there together! BBQ anyone?

I am curious to know what you think the "credentials to anecdotally claim the existance of a God" are? What exactally does it take to have these credentials, and how do you know that no one here already has them?

While I am not as educated as some who have posted here, and while some who have posted here I have great respect for their opinions and beliefs I do not neccessarily subscribe to those particular beliefs.
That being said I am however a Christian and do believe God created EVERYTHING by simply speaking it into existence. He IS GOD and therefore capable of doing just that.
I believe God is perfect and it is mankind who made this world not perfect. How can that be if a perfect God can create imperfection? I believe God gave mankind the ability to choose which path they will take. And so mankind made his choice to disobey God. God told mankind how to live forever and then gave man a choice to do so.
When mankind chose imperfection God still attempted to save mankind by taking on the penalty for each individual chosing imperfection. We can now accept that or not accept it.
Personally I have chosen to accept it.
I cannot offer conclusive scientific proof there is a God. I am a human being...imperfect because flesh has been corrupted when mankind chose to disobey God. No creation is greater than it's creator. I make mistakes. I sin. I need to look toward perfection as my guide for living.
I base my beliefs on the bible. I believe the bible is the inspired infallable word of God. A love letter to mankind on how to live. I believe we each have a choice to believe it or not. Since christians (followers of Christ) are to pattern themselves after the life of Jesus we are instructed to love others as God has loved us. Forgiving each person of offences committed. This then is proof to me there is a God. For if there were no God there would be no perfect love. Perfect Love forgives all, love does not despise, love does not lift itself up above others, no greater love has any man than he who lays his life down for his brother.
I believe God came in the flesh and laid his life down for us and paid the penalty for our transgressions. Now we have a choice to accept or deny this.
I have a choice to be forgiven or to not accept the forgiveness. I can accept the price paid or not accept it. Perfect love doesnt force me. Perfect love allows me to make my choice. It is a matter of faith.

Where then is the debate?

Not everyone will believe this. To some it will seem foolishness. To some it doesn't even make sense. It is such a simple concept that even some of the most intelligent people on the face of the earth will not wrap their heads around this. It is therefore a choice. One that I chose to make. I have no other explanation other than I just know in my heart it's real.
It amazes me that those who do not accept the beliefs of christianity expect those that do to be perfect. It will never happen. We are all human beings. Now imperfect, and each have our own choices to make. I chose to believe One who I believe is perfect.


((((hugs))))