Destroy a Country

I think it is the new "Mien Kempf". And also, notice the group who is behind this group?

Interesting eh...

You don't have anything to worry about. The World Court would only go after the leaders now the citizens, unless the citizens were in the Armed Forces or a member of the Government.

If I am not mistaken, it was instances in newborns with Luekemia. It was a situation where the statistics were similar to Love Canal where a disproportiante amount of babies were born with defects or such in areas where munitions where used, so people could argue the cause effect scenerio all day from either side.

This was data from post Gulf War 1 btw, during the interum

Eh.. what?
Are you suggesting that any of those countries are "harder targets" than Iraq? Seriously? Do you think that any of them would have a chance of defeating the US in a conventional war?

I mean, let's be honest here.. All of those countries have total whackjobs running them. Most of the countries simply do not present anything interesting for the US (like the Sudan, for example) Others, like Saudi Arabia, are totally non-democratic regimes that opress their populations, and we leave them be because we get oil from them. I think it has far more to do with that stuff, than it does with them being "hard targets".

And, do you really think that the regime in Saudi Arabia is WORSE than Saddam Hussein? Honestly? That seems to be a bit far fetched... Also, the statement that Hussein was a moderate seems to be a bit out of touch with reality. I mean, as far as I know, Hussein was the only one of those leaders who actually deployed chemical weapons against his own people, and murdered them by the thousands.

well its not exactly light reading and the implications must be inferred, they are not spelled out, so it is totally out of reach of the ritilan MTV generation to comprehend what is outlined

hidden in plain sight

No, this actually one of the major problems of the international court.

It was not limited to holding heads of state responsible. It could prosecute anyone.

Yes, Saudi Arabia is worst. Saddam is still only a light middle weight amoung current world dictators.

North Korea can Nuke California, today if it wanted to



Bush was recently trying to develop brand new Nukes for conventional battles.

Also, the "insurgents" never got out of line with Saddam there, and killed the citizens like they are since we started "spreading freedom"

Now that we are approaching the numbers of Iraqis killed since the invasion that Saddam allegedly killed, where is our moral authority on the matter?

Even if I were to agree that Saddam was a dangerous madman who needed to be stopped, it doesn't change the facts that our reasons for invading have nothing to do with the explanation given

No, no, no, no, Roland. You're doing it again.

There is something horribly wrong with this, if you'll honour me by letting me speak directly as I think without taking offence.

I believe I see what it is. If we genuinely wish to exert and inconvenience ourselves selflessly to save lives and reduce suffering in the world, there is a huge, huge queue of candidate actions.

As long as one effective outstanding action in that queue can be implemented without harming and killing additional human beings, no action involving such "collateral damage" can possibly be undertaken first.

The moment we see such action killing and maiming we can know for certain that selflessly helping cannot possibly be the motive.

What has Iraq cost ? is it $4Billion per month roughly ?

Imagine that spent on projects for the starving of Africa. Unimaginably more genuine lifesaving and helping could have been done, without killing or maiming any children or innocents at all.

The Iraqi people should have waited, way way down the queue, because of the horrific human cost of helping them. Because it (apparently) needed the evil of war. Even if we accept uncritically the thesis that we are actually helping them at all.

No. "helping the Iraqis" is a total dead duck as far as justifying this war.

Even ignoring the fact that it was never given as the reason at the time, but raked up in retrospect, when the original justification proved bogus.

Any rational analysis of the morality must put a hundred other things higher in the queue.

Which would not have needed any american soldiers to die either.

so fucking do it
better yet put on a uniform and express your regret and remorse and then declare contientious objection.

******** a virtual hug, Mulch, and a real tear *********

While I enjoy the more rhetoric and esoteric debate that is going on now vs. yesterday early today; What you people have been saying has made me vomit literally. I didn't choose to participate in this war or the other 2 'conflicts' I had to participate in. However I did as I joined the military to serve my country. I was not brainwashed, I was definitely not a born killer. However, the life I chose required me to act on the orders given me. Until you understand or live that life you can sit back all laureled up with your ivy league papers making you smarter than me.

You can tear down the country you live in because of people like me throughout the history of the US who wore the same uniform. That is all I ask you to remember. Whether you believe in what we do are what we have done or not is not the issue. I would guess 99% of the posters on this forum had the right to vote. I would guess 50%+ didn't.

When I joined SL I thought cool a world without the bullshit I've lived my life through and I can escape for a while and enjoy what my mind dreams up. Then I found the forums. Various other nuances bled into the world as well from/birthed from the forums. Now I realize this is just another mutated addendum to the fucked up world I live in called RL.

Yes, although I believe in reality this would not be likely. A far more likely target would be our allies in the region, such as Japan, who Korea (both north AND south) hate more than anyone... and they'd be far more likely to succeed in such an attack.

But I would certainly agree that this is most likely the biggest reason why we would be a bit more delicate with them.



Hmmm.. and why do you think that is?

Could it be, perhaps, that killing civilians really wouldn't have phased Saddam hussein at all? I mean, he killed his OWN people by the thousand. So, killing his people wasn't exactly a threat to him.



I've already stated that I think it's naive to suggest that the reason for going to war was liberation of the Iraqi people. The reason was because the US had strategic interests in the region. Liberation of the iraqis was just icing.

Again, I'm not trying to justify the war here.

I'm not very knowledgeable on this, Roland. But I think that the problem goes like this.

The de*l*ted ur*n*m shell penetrates the tank basically because it is heavier than lead, and can carry more kinetic energy to the impact. Enough to melt and penetrate the a*mo*r, and itself being vaporised and and dispersing more or less as a gas. The particles are thus very small, and are easily breathed in. They lodge permanently in the lungs, and are not excreted from the body. When eventually a ra*io*ct*ve decay occurs it is right up close to a cell. Maybe the same cell gets several hits over time from the tiny multi-atom particle. Hence genetic damage, mutation and cancer.

I may have the details wrong, but it is the tinyness of the particles, and their consequent widely distributed and penetrating nature that is the problem I believe.

Do you know what this substance actually is ? The natural stuff (as mined) has a certain mix of two types , one active, one not. This is processed to extract the "hot stuff". I belief it comes down typically from maybe 3 or 4% to around 1%. It is not economic to extract further, so this less active 1% material is the byproduct called "d**leted".

You could easily try to research this on the net, but I am a bit paranoid, and I no longer search on such topics now I know that ec*e*o* watches everything, so you'll need to do it yourself if you dare.

I just want our troops home

and the human condition will spread to whatever it has infected, such is the nature of this parasite

I want them home too. You don't know the guilt I live with that I am.

No, that's no really how depleted uranium shells work.

While it is true that some shells tends to break up partially during armor penetration, the pieces tend to be more like BB size. In things like our anti tank shells, they break up inside, ignite the air inside the tank, which detonates the target's own ammunition, which then blows up the target.

It doesn't really function by producing a large cloud of uranium vapor.

However, you ARE correct that inhalation of uranium dust is the most dangerous situation involving uranium, mainly because it's the only way the uranium's alpha particles from decay have a chance of causing sustained damage. But, even then, the exposure from the radiation is very small, because of the incredibly long half life of U238.

The thing we need to remember is how weak the radioactivity of uranium is. Mainly, because alpha radiation (What is emitted by Uranium when it decays) is so incredibly weak. An alpha particle loses all of its energy when it collides with anything. if you put a block of uranium in a paper bag, it'll block all radiation that occurs from the uranium decaying. Even in open air, alpha radiation can only travel about 2 inches.

I think we all learned our lessons from Vietnam.

The troops are not responsible for this and are doing what was asked of them

its the boss who made the bad call

Indeed. I just wish that people realized that back then, instead of spitting on our men and calling them baby killers.

Say what you want about the conflict and the leadership.. but we owe a lot to the men who have the courage to fight our battles and win our wars. We basically owe them everything.

Lektor -I am really sorry you feel like this. I'm not sure, but I think the only person who talked of "killers" here was another serviceman.

For the record, every nation needs its warriors to protect it, and yes, once they join they do have to give unswerving obedience except in the most exceptional circumstances, as laid out at Nuremberg.

If unjust wars are fought (and I am not asking you to agree this is one) the responsibility lies with the government which orders the troops out there. After all, they have all the facts, the background, the intelligence reports which the soldier cannot access.

I understand the vietnam vets have big problems with societies unjust treatment of them, and I can't condone it.

I can see that this sort of hypothetical discussion is painful to you. Although it would be a pity to lose the voice of someone with first hand experience, it might be better if you keep away if we upset you. We really don't mean to.

The sick thing is that this sort of reality-insulated "ivy-league" discussion as you describe it is probably quite similar to the deliberations of rummy and co when they hatch up these dastardly plans, and sent you and your friends off into danger.

Every time in my life I have got a glimpse a little further into some "centre of power" I find nothing but the same little bunch of similar flawed self-interested human beings kicking ideas around and hatching plans, probably for their own benefit. I see no reason to believe this particularly nasty little gang is much different, except in the number of people who must obey them and the funds they can spend.

None of which is your fault, Lektor. We've all been taken for mugs and lied to, the military perhaps most of all, and nobody at rock bottom is smarter than anyone else.

Wait, so if I key an SUV and take or destroy a Bible, I'm off scot free and Ulrika takes the hit?

Boy howdy!

Much to do ... BBL!

You snobs think that everyone has your point of view on life. Well I can tell you that most of the world does not.

Plain and simple: War is bad, Ive lived thru a few of them, starting with Nam when I was 17 and joined the Army to served my country as my father did, and his father did, yada, yada, yada.

NO ONE LIKES IT & People DIE

IF WE DONT KILL THEM OVER THERE, THEY WILL COME HERE AND KILL YOUR CHILDREN

You all want a new world order, where The one world, has a socialist govenment, and a one world church, and you dont even care if its a hateful one.

The USA is Good, George Bush is a great man, dealing with things, Clinton swept under the rug, becuase he had his mind other places, like the gutter.

Well you all will have to wait until my generation dies out. Then you can do with the world, with what you wish. So hang in there for another 20 years or so.

BTW Roland, On another forum board, I was called a Dope smokin, ear totin, baby killin, dinosaur, just 2 months ago. So some still think of Vets as sub-human animals.

Oh yeah the guy that called me that is a US Marine Captain. Brother in arms no more.

All the peace-niks and liberals got thier way during Nam, and we pulled out.

Then the new govenments probly killed 1.2 million citizens, but the libs didnt care then, and dont care now. Some of them were my friends, and I carry that with me each day of my life.

I thought I could start a second life where things didnt turn out like the first.

Fat chance

Lectkor,

Just to be clear, I have nothing but respect for those who serve in the military. The sacrifices that have been made are beyond reproach. What I have a problem with is the leadership of the US, not its military. While I do not support the US being in Iraq, more than anything I want the troops safe, and I want them home. They are doing their duty, and doing so honorably, and for that we all owe them a tremendous amount of gratitude. Someone once said to me that war is nothing but old men playing with the lives of the young. I guess that what gets to me - I have so much contempt and animosity for President Bush et al, and each new day brings more death and destruction to both the Iraqi people, and to the US troops, and for what?

I just wanted to make sure you knew that I do respect your service, and your sacrifice. I just don't happen to respect the man in charge.

Someone has been over doing it on the Kool Aid!

and totally unrelated, has anyone heard that being in Nam really fucked with some peoples heads? Im just askin...

I agree 100%. Well said