pay for event listings?

Ok.. what happens to my group that is trying to bring quality competitions to SL. There is approximately a 3 week run between building and the vote period... 24 hours a day. Prizes including money are going out. We get "some" money in. But not enough to cover a fee for every half hour the competions are going on. All my funds go into the competitions and my groups. I think I have spent maybe $4000 on my self in the last year and a half (and the majority was for gifts). So, basically, in my case, the events listings would decrease what is going back into the pockets of the SL population.

What would happen to the Community Fair I am going to set up in April. No money will potentially be coming in. It will run 2-3 weeks, 24/7. What about the other things like Burning Life? the Neualtenburg (sorry if I spelled it wrong) projects? etc. They are built for the enjoyment of the SL community at large and to tickle their creative ticklebones. To pay by the half hour to put on something that is not meant as a money-maker is strange to me. And, why pay based on time anyway since the event is listed as a single entry?

Everyone is trying to find a way of exclusion instead of inclusion in order to solve a fairly simple problem (in my opinion).

All of the events on the calendar that draw a group of people are valid. An event is something novel that happens.

The problem is in definition and encouraging proper useage.

As I have said before, I really dont think the categories were properly set up by definition, but that is not quite the issue. An activity is always going to fit more than one definition if the user really wants to make a case for it.

I think the problem is more fundamental. What is the Events Page for? It, IMO, is to find out what is going on in SL. That includes all the ingos and special sales, mall openings, competitions, classes, cultural events, etc. As SL grows, more people will want to participate, hence more events.

The problem is in making it manageable, apparently with little supervision.

I understand that the idea of putting in a search engine will be a heavy drain on the system. And, to tell you the truth, unless someone knows what the categories are, they probably wont find things useful to them anyway. For long time users, it might work but for new residents, it might be problemmatic.

I still think the best solution would be to have a separate tab with the on-going or all day events. Yes, it will be a second place to look, but think of the clutter-reduction.

I was also thinking that instead of fining people for having events, you placed some sort of negative reinforcement on people who improperly used the events page (like being blocked from using it for a time or a fee or something) following one warning (to take care of people who just plain didnt understand the rules), maybe they would post properly. However, that again moves into the realm of calendar oversight, which apparently is part of the problem.

As to the idea of sending the money to charity, it sounds good, but again causes more controversy. Who picks the charity? Why should it be one thing or another? Do event posters want to donate to a charity not of their choosing. etc etc etc.

Pretty cyclical.
It all comes down to the same point over and over. The events pages are messy because they are used and because SL contains diversity, one of the goals of LL. The problem is in making the mess useable. And that will not be accomplished without someone to help sweep.

So, I still vote Nay on a fee.

I like the idea earmarking the fee or a portion of the fee to pay for educational or other events. Nice one Travis.

It could also be used to simply reinforce dwell. Whenever I host an event on my property, I usually get a bonus in the form of dwell the next day. Occasionally an hour long event will get me 40-60 extra in dwell. It's better that at least some of that money comes from somewhere and not just be printed money.

The by definition every single ad in the classified and events is an Event. Or to put it more simply; you definition is too broad and vague to be useful.

Here's a simple example of the type of 'events' that clogging the calendar and reducing it to uselessness;

Club XYZ posts events every three hours during the day (day after day); But if you go there during 'Eighties hour' - you find them playing the same Hitz channel they play all day. If you go during 'pink bunny suit hour' - you go there and find no one, (not even staff) in pink bunny suits. In fact, if you go there over a course of days not once out of multiple vists are the events/activities listed even mention in the club proper. (Then there's also Club DDD who does the same thing; but when you visit you find one AV on a dance pole and two more sleeping in camp chairs - no staff is ever present on the lot.)

And that's not mention the dozens of other types of 'non-events' that equally clog the Events tab.

The problem here is subtle and two fold - first, it dilutes the useability of the Events tab for honest users, and secondly it leads the new AV to believe that dishonesty is the order of the day on the Grid.

add events list resmods. seems easy enough. If someone posts what is obviously a classified ad on the free community calendar, charge that person a classifieds fee and move the thread over to a paid space.

No, just detail someone to check that "yard sales" are non-commercial yard sales and attended by the person hosting the yard sale. If necessary, and LL has no in-house staff who has the time, get a LIVE HELPER to police the EVENTS listings/sites and report by email to one designated Linden person about bogus EVENTS listings.

That way, the commercial dealers who hold bogus "yard sales" can be warned and a record kept by someone of how many times they violate the EVENTS posting policy, as wel as the casinos that hold continuous bogus "events".

After any commercial business violates the EVENTS posting policy twice, FINE THEM the 3rd time (a fine equal to 50% of their daily take of Lindens would suffice to get their attention focussed on the severity of their offense, I think), suspend the account of the business owner for a minimum of 3 days, and REQUIRE them to advertize in the CLASSIFIEDS.

Nay. We need a Linden who will actively patrol the Event Listings, best case senario the event's wouldn't be posted untill the linden approves them. Either that or give us the ability to "rate" event postings + or - and then say set a limit like "only display events with a rating of +3 or greater".

ok so to post an event, we go in out own account on sl website. Therefore, we pay for post out of our own pocket?

what are we paying for? Improvements, less abuse of system?

Improvements would be the ability to post in world not on website just like classifieds. But not as classifieds. Ever since dwell was taken away, numbers didnt matter other then the cruel PAID list of stores, clubs, etc.
Paying events like classifieds would kill off all the new clubs starting up. and for what. so lindens can collect these funds for sake of an A list. They should be putting all those funds they get from their classifieds back into paid host events, since Dwell gets taken away.
Clubs dont get rewards for hosting events, for over a year now. Prize payouts come out of the owners pockets, money drops come from the owners pockets.
Where we pay so much and Linden keeps taking away ours.
You want to make money then you better fork it over first.
That is brutal.

Should`nt this be Jesse Lindenin the first place?!

Well In the early days when LLabs paids us host for doing events, there was problems with people abusing the system as is. I was a host back when LLabs paid us, but owners never really cared quility because they were not forking out the pay to the host.......Grant you coco love dancer, escorts, djs, etc were not covered during those early time. But then again weeky pay was high and there was plenty of money for everyone. Strange LLabs wanted us to socialize so they paid us to host, then come "DEATH Jan 2005" and BOOM down goes weeky pay, down goes 50% of the dance clubs, and owners started treating staff like rabbit shit........I know jesse throws out alot of money at Bad Girls to keep the ranking high on the PPlists. But as you can tell from the top 5 the dwelling drops. OMG ID was way over 100000 dwelling and what are they know 59000, South I ( not even on the PPlisting now look.....52000 and Bad Girls.............omg what 88000 at times...NOW 49000 OMG Coco Love i really hate to see the after effects coming "DEATH March 31st" ITS A WHOLE NEW SL game coming love

Dwelling changes blame those with the lack of creative people (MONEY CHAIRS AND DANCE PADS) that put us in this spot now THANK YOU and I hope the DOOR Hits your greedy fat ass! And thank you for killing off part of the game as well...............dirty **********.......


Grant you this is a safesaver for smaller club that could not make it with the big boys, NOW they are hiting the PPlist......But I still can`t forget HOW far worse off we are now coming at the 31st of this then before this monkey shit money chair/dance that caused all these problems.

LLABS you better have one hell of a recovery plan for this fine mess we are in because of your lack of control on the creactive front of dev Insentive of new content for sl .Or better known as (DI)


A little side note............. Remeber back around late July the big push GAMING "tringo" and the one person that made his entance on to second life BY winning big at a gambling casino ( he made the from page of second life web page). I mean more likey he was a setup with him by buying his way in to the game ( making it appear that he won big, in fact it was his money that as really his that he won. From then mid july 2005 to now is Second Life is nothing more then one big pile of rabbit shit created by LLabs for the only reason to Boost Population that cause grief from alts griefting and hurting peopel in the game..........Why did they do this to us? why couldnt they leave things alone? "DEATH 2005 Jan was bad enough but this fuckign mess with DI REALLY REALLY HURTS US BAD.............
I really feel sorry for the IN WORLD Lindens they have to take alot or abuse from stupid and brainless people when they are in the game that was caused by th over population causes by DI and those shitty money chairs/ pads. God where would we be with out the war torn lindens, Altruima Linden,Harry Linden,Kenny Linden,Nigel Linden,and last but not least........Nicole Linden....... OMG you guys are great! And a few others i have not written here...... Yourthe life blood of this game..........Ok enought ra ra
Thank you for reading

As I understand it, the plan is to treat SL as RL. People get jobs to make money (work in clubs, instruct etc), they then pay that money back to attend other events or buy things.

Unfortunately, since this isn't RL and the majority of the people I know who "play" SL already work at least 1 RL job, sometimes 2 and can't take on a 3rd. The alternative Robin mentioned for those people is they can always buy $L.. which will be interesting for the family working 2 jobs and wanting to come here to "relax" or "get away".. having dinner or playing SL will be a no-contest decision.

As for the moneychairs as the killer - welcome to life - if there's a way to get your product in front of the masses, people use it. If you have the money to pay for TV commercials to increase your visibility then you use it. Same goes for moneychairs. As for the right or wrong of using them.. that's another discussion entirely.

The biggest problem I see is treating SL, a game.. as a life. It's a nice "idea" but unrealistic to think that everyone has the time to spend in-game working or the money to buy $L if they don't.. as for events charging. As I pointed out to Robin during a discussion about this, EVERY club/event/etc in SL would need to charge at the EXACT same time. If ANY club/event/etc were to allow people to be there for free, the system will fail since nobody would be making $ to go to the next event. Unfortunately, I'm not an expert on economy trends and have no idea on a suggestion for the "right way" to make a game currency work, but I strongly feel that it's headed the wrong direction.

[On a related note to this discussion of economy is the whole "we are not going to say one type of event is worth more than another, except teaching classes.. that's worth more than any other live event and worth getting $L over.. supposedly this is going away, but no idea when..]

Back to the origional question about charging for event listings? No thanks, just means any club actually being active enough to post events is hurt for hosting events.

Let me ask you? How much do you play? well this remark by you it sure does not appear not much at all.

If you were alittle more active you would see I am not only one bitching about money chairs/pad..........And yes been a death to the game just look at the game as is .you think its better? well enought with this reply enough said......

I'm usually online from 11am - midnight weekdays and a bit less on Fridays and the weekends.



Having multiple people share an opinion does not suddenly validate it. It's a common mistake people make to think that though. You're not alone.



I don't recall saying it's better, just more like RL. It's not "better" that companies with a few million $ get to be the only people running superbowl commercials and it's not "better" that people with a few extra $US can get into poplar places - just saying "welcome to life".

Anything "automated" can be defeated for the whole popular places thing - it was only a matter of time. Having people vote with the voting booths didn't work, just tracking where people go and assuming that if people sit somewhere it's good doesn't work.. there's got to be a better way - and the day it's found, you'll see a lot of moneychairs/pads go away..

Some yard sales are _REAL_ yard sales (held by individuals/couples & non-commercial groups), and as such, do qualify for the EVENTS listings, if they list the times of operation and someone is in attendance at the yard sale. BOGUS yard sales, by commercial secondhand goods dealers, DO NOT QUALIFY and should be banned from posting to the EVENTS listings at all.

Grand openings also qualify -- even if they are the grand opening of a commercial business, as long as the "ceremonial" GRAND OPENING time frame is a set period, and there is an active host on site during that period. After that, they're a commercial business in full gear, and should be advertising in the CLASSIFIEDs.

Gambling session do not qualify, nor do the nightclub "dressup" contests -- both are PSEUD0-EVENTS, and ALL tringo/slingo/"best in whatever" contests should be required to list in the CLASSIFIEDs.

Dwell is maybe as much as $120. If a host costs an event venue $150-200 (average wage) then the event venue owner is losing money right and left already!

Think about it. Since last year events have taken these hits.

1. Events pay (gone)
2. DI (gone)
3. DI gone prematurely for any venue NOT running camping chairs/pads

Where does the money come from to recoup?
Why should anyone make events if they have to throw tons of money at it to make it happen?
If there is a post fee for events, we will not post. Or I won't. And the events, save for those few that have a steady following, will die off.

This would be, for many, the absolute last straw.

I don't know why people who rarely or never hold events seem to think that it makes all this money. Not ONLY does it not make money, it is starting to cost a bloody fortune to have an event.

Think of it like this: Event venue A
1. pays $195 USD tier
2. pays $4500 per hour for a single musician to play
3. pays 300-1000 per hour for a dj
4. makes maybe 1/2 of the teir back (with lots of effort) from rental spaces
5. is still losing money by the FISTFUL
6. is asked on TOP of this to start paying for events listings?!?

I know what I'd say if I were Venue Owner A: Fekk it! I'm gonna start teaching basket weaving at the local community college and MAKE money rather than SPEND money to entertain and educate people.

I never suggested that dwell makes up for all the money spent on events.

Actually, it was me that originally suggested that Dwell could offset the cost of posting an event. The cost of employees or prizes, however - no.

With all respect, Cherry - where are you coming up with the figure of L$120?

Just for yesterday - here are our statistics for the Shelter:



Assuming it would have costed us $100 to post those two one-hour events, I'm not understanding the projected loss. If I'm misunderstanding, please explain.

If you look on the popular places list, those venues have Dwell ratings of 21,000 to 56,000+ - I would assume their daily dwell payments are in the thousands.

When we have had events at the spa for 2-3 hours (and usually that is all the money the I can afford to throw down the drain) it cost us tons.

What we have gotten back (at the very very highest, after having two back to back events keeping about 30-40 avies in the space for 4 hours) was $310. On average, it is around $120. The people that get dwell payments in the thousands will still be paying 4 times that for staff.

If I pay $300 for a host's time for 2 hours, typically what I getback in dwell is around $120. This is a loss of $180. We're not even including tier in this equation. So the actual cost is much much more and in USD.

IF I ADDITIONALLY have to pay, say, $100 for a 2 hour post, this means I am losing $280 for each 2-hour event. This is for a modest storytelling or contest event.

If I pay a DJ, I am spending 300-1000K per event. If I pay a musician, I'm spending $2500 to $7000 per event. There is currently no way for me to make up those staffing costs. Dwell doesn't even begin to touch it. This is, however, the kind of entertainment people like the most.

IF a person is occasionally having a little party at his or her house and not paying hosts and not paying for prizes and, maybe, paying little for teir, then sure, a posting fee would be no big deal. For event venues, however, it is a very, very big deal and could wind up costing the "popular places" thousands per day. They are making no money. This will only harm a sector of the world that has been profoundly and repeatedly hit.

I therefore, resoundingly, say NAY.

Is your property straddling a sim, maybe, Travis? We can only fit 40 avatars in our land because we have most of a sim (but pay full-sim teir). Maybe that's where some of the difference comes is access to volume. I'd be willing to say that most event venues probably don't have multi-sim property, though.

What happens when you include staffing costs into your equation, Travis?
How much time and effort do you put into fundraising in order to break even?

Even if I wanted to, I cannot apply for funds relief as I am officer for the only game in town and therefore ineligible. If I must pay for postings, (and I feel quite despondent by even the thought of it) I will surely no longer be able to host events at the spa. My costs are too high already. I am spending as much on SL and entertaining others, right now, as I am on groceries. It's getting ridiculous.

The additional problem, though, is that club XYZ isn't the only kind of venue out there. There are some places that are conscientiously holding events that are genuine events, and doing it nightly, weekly, etc. Our spa hosts events and our hosts show up or they stop being hosts. The events aren't fake. They are held at the same time, same place each week. We lose money hosting them. or rather, I lose money hosting them.

Why punish me just because club XYZ messes things up on the events calendar? Why should I be paying for THEIR mess???

Also, what do you think will happen once it costs money to post an event? People will just post all their crud in special attractions.

It does not cost me money to post a new creation in new products. It should not cost people to post GENUINE events in the events calendar either.

nay

I'm director of New Citizens Incorporated. Currently NCI hosts 13 events a week

Blitz Building for New Players, two Newbie Show & Tells (Tuesday evening & Wednesday afternoons), Newbie Salsa/Q&A, Basic Building (2 hours), Advanced Building (1.5 hours), Water Effects (Wednesday and Saturday), Understanding Textures, Very Basic Scripting, Making Money in SL 1: Basics, Making Money in SL 2: Land, Land Q&A.

That's 14 hours worth of events per week. Real events. Under the proposed 50L per event listing rule, that would cost NCI 700L a week. There are a lot better things we could do with that 700L than pay it to LL (like using it for rent... or prizes for Show & Tells). We also have plans to add more classes (two more currently in works).

I also post the events for NCI, so a limit of two events per day would be a real problem--especially if as someone suggested alts aren't allowed to post. And I run two Trivial Obsession games at The Shelter each week. Those have to be posted, too.

The way to fix the event list is by implementing better client-side filtering. Does anyone really think that clubs or tringo games or perpetual yard sales are going to have trouble with 50L? No--what this will do is further _reduce_ the number of non-commercial events on the calender.

Please stop trying to fix what isn't broken and fix the things that are broken.

Hrm....

Between Perse & Carl - I have to admit I'm starting to have second thoughts on my position here.

The Shelter hosts 9 events per week - at the $50/event charge - that's $450 per week. Extrapolate that over a month and you've got $1800 in order to post events.

That is a significant chunk of change.

And Perse, you're absolutely right. While our hosts are all volunteer - and don't collect any fees other than tips - our prize costs are quite expensive - to the tune of $6000 per week.

$6000 + $1800 to post = $7800 in weekly event costs. Carl would be in an even worse situation.

While I still hold that dwell payments can offset the potential cost of *posting* an event - it most definately wont offset the total cost of *hosting* an event. I stand corrected.

Today I visited the online event calendar - and sorted the events out by Host (you can do that now). The result was quite interesting & frustrating - when you look at the volume of 5x repeated, 3 hour events on there for today alone.

Short of my original suggestion: better filters... I am out of ideas.

I say neither yay nor nay. Wait until after dwell goes away. See how the event schedule changes.

Better filters would be awesome. If i could just add
"-yard -*ingo -club"
to the keyword search it would solve many problems.

Gesh i just love it when people apply RL to this game.........looks like i talking to the wrong person here

This i love to see........