pay for event listings?

Did I say nay?

Ya seem to want us to develop things for folks to do so they stay in SL, so they upgrade to premium memberships, so they add to the economy and word of mouth... Yet you don't offer a heck of a lot of support. Our endeavors were never big enough to qualify for DI, so that isn't an issue (and is just about a moot point). The evil dwell bonus folks like to bandy about is peanuts (it kind of covers our costs to list ourselves in "Places" with the remaining pennies being split amongst the folks in our land owning group).

We may not have the most exciting business model in the world (games, a mall, a year-round ice rink and a country club, no casino, no camping), but we have a lively place that folks enjoy hanging out at. We post legitimate events to try to get folks who've never been to our sim to try us out. Right now we have about 28 events a week -- at, say 50L an event to post that comes to 1,400L a week. On the surface, that may not seem like a lot, but when added onto all of our other expenses it adds up.

Quite frankly, I'd stop posting events. The only events I'd pay to post for would be ones where I was going to make some money -- on, oh, say... A YARD SALE!

If you want to clean up the events calendar, do it -- you have guidelines and rules, enforce them. I personally have never had a problem with yard sales and such being listed. Especially when I was new, this was one of the ways I explored SL -- ended up in new places, looked at new things. More often than not I ran into the posted host.

As a land/business owner, I'm just tired of being nickled-and-dimed. I've paid a boatload of money for land and I pay another boatload of money each month in tier and it would be nice to catch a break.

/me is done whining for today

(I did say NAY, right?)

Nay. Proper policing is the only way forward. And it doesn't take that much effort. It may be a bit dull, but, frankly, suck it up - I do boring things for the most of my day, and I do lots of boring chores to maintain the internet communities that I support, dumping spammers and so on.

Ok started out long long ago that host actually got paid to offset events, well they took that away. This making it harder to have quality events. Now lindens want us to pay to just post the events. When does it stop? I am totally against it. What about just better tools to find the type of event your looking for, the filters don't always work.

A few comments....


Most days I post one event to the calendar per day. The exception is Sundays, where we hold 3 seperate events. These are legitamate events, and its something we look forward to every week. I've also been asked repeatedly to hold some of our game shows at more European-freindly times. A restriction of two per day would elminate that possibility.

I've felt that arbritrary limits to the number of events one can post per day is a bad idea since the limit of '5' was introduced last year. I'd prefer we had no restrictions at all, and depended on other measures (like a fee, or more robust searching) to 'cull' the calendar down to more legitamate events.


Having an event count restriction, but allow a waiver with a "License" that could be revoked upon event calendar abuse isn't a bad idea - but only if everyone is eligable for that license, and its used as a carrot to encourage responsible posts.


Note that the only way I think charging on a half-hour model has a remote chance of creating a desireable outcome - is if the amount is small enough to be a negligable impact to honest uses of the event calendar, but become expensive for those who abuse it.

Additionally, I don't think porting the event calendar to the classified model is a good idea at all. I only mean to suggest that the event calendar might be attractive to classified advertisers because its free. Charge a small fee for the event calendar, and you might reduce that incentive.

Having an event appear 'first' in a particular timeslot would be irrelevant. When I look for events on the calendar, I browse all the events within a certain time. Whether its first or last makes no difference: hence the reason I feel porting to the classified model would be ineffectual and only add confusion.


You took the words out of my mouth, Kaklick. Almost a year has passed since the Event Work Group Meetings were held, where we were asked to help come up with short-term fixes to the event calendar. Better filters were brought up loudly, but we were told that was not something that could be acheived short-term, but the plan was to make them a reality long-term. I don't know about anyone else, but one-year later seems like long-term to me. I understand dev time is at a premium, but how long is really reasonable to wait?

Nor do I, Zonax. If it was $20,000... or even $200 to post an event, I'd find that excessive and unacceptable. But what if the charge to post an event was about the same as what you'd receive in Dwell for the day? (I'm imagining $50). I'd think that would only become a burden for those who abuse the calendar.

If event calendar res-mods were to become a reality, Lewis' suggestion above is about the only way I'd be comfortable with it: Resident Moderators can flag an event for review - but it is a Linden that metes out punishment. Of course, this requires paid man-hours from a Linden perspective, and may be unattractive to them.

If a blanket charge is introduced, it will have the effect of reducing still further the non-profit-making events while having no effect at all on the spam.

I would have presumed you wanted the opposite effect?

1. Nice going putting crappy words in my mouth. I said nothing of the kind.

I said that if you want to find something in the events list, you can LOOK and FIND something in there. Then I went on to tell how I do that. I do that either by looking in the hour I am on (which is what I usually do first), and/or filtering the events and looking at the categories I'm interested in.

I was not talking about "lazy" or "stupid." I was talking about - if you look at the whole THING it is easy to decry the way the whole thing looks. That says nothing, however, about the ease of finding the sort of thing you happen to be looking for. Which is - by categories, AND by keyword.

"Lazy" and "stupid" has nothing to do with it. I'm saying people criticizing the events list actually do NOT have trouble finding those events they might be interested in, because they aren't really looking for any. They are just pointing out all the events on the list that they don't like or think shouldn't be there. And I would add that their suggesting that others can't find things on the list implies THEY think OTHERS are stupid. Which I do not.

2. We are not discussing the number of interesting things to do.

Are you trying to say that people have stopped putting on interesting events simply because there are so many of the other events (the ones you find uninteresting) on there?

I would suggest that is not the case. There are other factors that can influence how many interesting events (i.e., the ones you find interesting) you see on the calendar. For example, there are more people in the world now, and so those events you find interesting may be outnumbered by those events you found interesting. Secondly, the removal of the events stipend I believe has more to do with the absence of the events you would find interesting.

In any case, the very presence of events some people aren't interested in doesn't mean that they should no longer have a place on the calendar.

The question is not the number of interesting things that exist. The question is whether or not to charge for events. My point was just to not pick on the garage sales (or any other category of events some people may find uninteresting, because others of us don't).

coco

P.S. After reading Vivi's post and Selador's, I've arrived at a definite opinion regarding charging to list events:

NAY.

Perhaps another way is to restrict it so that only premium account holders can post events? That will cut down on the trial/alt abuse a bit, and if it doesn't, at least they're paying real cash for the privilege.



Lewis

An emphatic Yay!

RL experience tell us that everything that is "free" will be abused/used for spamming. If you have to pay for it, the incentive to abuse it becomes much smaller. Restricting the right to post events to premium accounts would be another way to make it more "expensive" and less likely to be abused. In addition, it would add to the perceived value of a premium account.

I worry about even a $50 charge for some events. Think of it this way: Joe wants to host a poetry event and likely 5-6 people will come. Another 40 or 50 will see the post and not come but think "wow what a great place this is that there is diversity and culture" (so Joe is impacting not only those who attend the event, but those who like the diversity of the world as well by holding the event. Maybe some of those who don't come this time will come next time.) Joe holds his event and gets $58L and a bit of satisfaction for his trouble. So long as his teir is small, it's all good.

But, if Joe has to pay $50 and he only makes $58 on traffic, how likely is he to post? What if all but commercial events quit paying to post? how is the new player to know about the "wow what a great place this is that there is diversity and culture" part? She won't. She won't know Joe's event exists because Joe won't advertise, and will instead invite the same 6 people who came last time. Then, because this is what happens in SL, the 6 people who used to come will become 4 people, then less, until Joe quits hosting poetry events.

It is true that for some folks $50L is not much of a problem. For others, it would be a barrier to hosting an event that would otherwise enrich community in SL.

That said, anyone who WANTS to place paid advertising should be able to do so. I'm all for monitoring the current events listings as much as we can. Events hosts and venues have taken a fair amount of the 'hit' toward LL monetization. Charging for events listings, particularly right after DI has been removed, is probably not so good.

If the goal is to have a less cluttered events list, why not simply reformat it to be sorted in a table? or colour coded by category type? I use the sort feature and it works just fine for me. If people are abusing the system, then just revoke their rights to post for a month. That'll learn em.

Yay.

"Yay" on Travis' idea of charging a nominal fee by time.

Yay.

One free posting per week, of any length. After that a fee that increases exponentially based on the number of hours of events already posted.

Nay. 4 two-hour events a day at 7 days a week equals $2,800L a week and $11,200L a month. Daily traffic payments aren't going to cover this - and DI has been taken away. Less incentive to post events and more fees attached to posting events. Seems silly.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thats like permanently tearing up the yard because the dog keeps digging holes rather than teaching him not to dig.

The real problem with the events listing is the people who spam it with repeated postings of the same so called event over and over again. THAT is what needs to be regulated and dealt with and it doesn't seem to me that it would be very hard since one glance at the events list for the day will show you exactly who those people are.

I personally would be able to suck it up and deal with having to pay a small (emphasis on small) fee because I post an event once a week at the most, sometimes once every few weeks. HOWEVER, I can see how incredibly expensive it could get for someone who posts two or three events per day, seven days a week, for say a small club whose events are for fun with no real revenue coming in.

Changing the events list to work the same way the classifieds work would be disastrous. What you'll end up with is a situation in which the only people bothering to post events and pay outragous amounts to be at the top of the list are those who expect to make some profit from it.... all that will be left will be casinos and sales. There is nothing wrong with either one but it would be a shame if thats all the newbies were ever able to find because the rest of us are doing all of our event announcing in our little group IMs instead. (which by the way I also hate and have also left numerous groups for doing)

I vote Nay. I run a twice weekly Art Gallery Tour which is free. Due to RL commitments I have an events hostess hired to assist with the tours. This cost has been kindly defrayed by now by the FFRC. The MAJORITY of the priticipants find the tour in the events listing. If you add a charge to post the events, the gallery tours will go away, as I suspect will a lot of other events. But...like in RL, I suppose there comes a time when only those large companies with larger budgets can afford to continue. I.e. "Mom & Pop" corner stores pushed out by "Big Box" retailers.

I vote on what prak said and that is to let everyone have one free post per week. I host Primtionary, twice weekly out of my own pocket for winnings, and it can get costly. I do get donations but doesnt always cover the winnings, and then with the fee to post it could sink me. I would at least get one free post and would have to pick up the cost of the second event. I don't host for dwell since I don't host on my own land. I only host cause I do lost the game Primtionary and it is an enjoyable time hosting. I would hate to see a huge fee be put into place and see some good events go to the wayside. Primtionary is like Pictionary but a second life version of it. Ok now with all that said, I got to throw in, I host on Wednesdays at 7 sl time, and Saturdays at 4 sl time, come on down and check it out. A very good time and a worth while event to keep around.

ok.. I have only gotten a part of the way down this thread but I sure would like to know where all the money comes from to pay for this and that and events?

I hold events. I have even made popular places. I am on a basic account. The most dwell I have ever gotten is $35l.

So, if I have to post the event, say a competition or voting phase several times a day over the course of a couple of weeks... that is toooooooo much

I understand the desire to make the events listing more readable

However, I am tired of those of us who are not a large outfit, do not have a big income, and redistribute all the money they get through prizes etc, getting hit constantly by fees for letting people know they exist.

I know my group is not the norm.. but this is really hurting those of us who are small and not existing for the sake of the buck.

no more fees!

Please, people, remember that there are different kinds of organizations than what you run and different reasons for posting, multiple posting, or posting for length of time than what you do or see as the norm. These rules that get set down hurt the outliers.... a lot!

You would actually probably be surprised to find that around 95% of the game are people just like you and me, who play the game, enjoy it, but don't have a huge disposable income to throw away each month on buying fake popularity in a fake existance.

Despite LL's claims about people making over $100,000 a year, these claims are actually unverifiable, and even if it is true is limited to ONE individual out of all players.

I wish LL would stop that misleading advertising, and perhaps if they focused more on the great things you can build here and all the other wonderful stuff that isn't money based, we'd find people stayed longer rather than finding out they won't get rich in a week, and never coming back.

Lewis

I'd say 'nay' in general, but 'yay' to the license idea. But even that might be difficult for those instructors that aren't working with a group such as TeaZer University or IDP University, etc.

Ultimately it seems like we just need more policing of the categories, and/or penalties placed on those abusing the listings.

Yet somehow, hundreds, nay thousands of internet communitied manage quite nicely to very effectively police their forums, event listings, etc... etc...

Sooner or later, LL is going to have start policing, or hand the tools to the Residents to do so. The Grid will niether grow, nor tip so long as the official policy of LL is "we won't interfere with anything" - that's anarchy and that's not attractive.

And when they do the community loses. Not only in richness and vibrancy, but in the person of Johnny Newavatar who finds only escorts and casino's - and decides maybe the Grid is a place he doesn't want to be.

Rewarding the offender is a singularly ineffective way of deterring them from offending.

The trick is to come up with a scheme of escalating punishments that hits them (hard) in the pocketbook. (And hit the land and object owners (who profit from the spam) too, not just the posters.) A team of five people could end the spam within a few weeks, and thereafter it would take one or two people one or two hours a week.

How many casino owners would continue to spam if they know there was a very real chance that they and their machines and camping chairs would get to spend a week in the cornfield? They are spamming escorts as well? Send the escorts to the cornfield too.

Hit 'em in the pocketbook and they will stop.

Even if it's a small amount like the classifieds, a listing fee would go a long way to reducing the rubble and chaos of the events page.

i don't even use the event finder anymore. It's so full of tringo, slingo, and 'Yard sales' that it's become just background noise. Finding a legitimate event is like looking for the needle in a jumbo-sized haystack.

No, it wouldn't.
Look at classifieds! Payed L$'s for listings range from L$ 20000 down to L$ 1000 (and at the end, the L$ 50's, of course). But even L$ 1000 doesn't get you remotely near the top in classifieds.

If there would be a small fee for events (L$ 50 per event), that'd still be a bargain to those who use the event listings as classifieds. If the event fee is too high (L$ 200-300 per event), you'll kill all good non-profit, just for fun and enjoyment events.

Here's some food for thought, an IMAGINED post:


How would you like THAT?
Because it's similar to what's being proposed for the event listings.

If that happened, I guess most people would move to one of the third-party forums instead (of which there are a number), and only check in here occasionally to get version notes and upgrade details.

There are already several 'external' calendars for SL events. This 'de-centralising' of information cannot be good for the community.

It's like outsourcing support to India. Might save a few dollars but you sure irritate a lot of people.

I fail to see why some sort of moderation cannot be enforced - after all, I am sure out of 100,000+ players there must be five or six who would be happy to volunteer?

Regulation may not be part of the LL "ethos", but it's more beneficial in the long run than total anarchy. Are you listening, LL?

Lewis

That's not a bad idea. I guess the next question that would need to be answered is if there is a price point for event listing which would separate the "wheat" from the "chaff" or more precisely, if there is a price which would make <event that I don't want to see> infeasible to add to the event calendar but which <event that I do want to see> would find the cost bearable and even beneficial since it would be more visible.

My real life observation of used car dealerships compared to pricey new car dealerships shows that there is an inverse relation between gaudy advertisement and "quality" of offerings. My casual look at the SL classifieds seems to agree with that.