Unskilled jobs? Pay volunteers first.

I keep looking for you on the game at night, Yumi! The night you contacted me, I was in a rare dither.

Anyway, I'll start by saying I benefitted that way myself. I had a friend from another game, Prokofy, who owns a lot of land in this one and allowed me to build on it, not knowing what I would come up with. But I planned to give him my houses free in return, which I have, for him to rent out, so ultimately, I was able to return the favor.

But - this was a luxury. I could have built in the sandbox. (Though it would be tricky to pack up and leave, and I wanted more privacy for my first attempts.)

It was also because I was just a basic member, and determined to see how far I could go on just a basic account.

So, the needing land from a friend thing applies only to basic members. And it doesn't apply even there, because you can build in the sandbox, or rent places to sell things in.

Or rent places to live in, as I did. I even went from there to "own" land from Nexus Nash. Where I could also build, and did.

If you are a premium member, you also get the ability to own land, and enough money to purchase a 512 for yourself/that account , so you can build there, or put your shop there, or do your Elbow Room there, or whatever you have in mind doing.

So the land from friends part you mention - however often it happens - isn't really a major factor in anybody's ability to succeed, I don't think. Plus, most people would rather have their own land ultimately anyway.

coco

Ah, that's ok. I've been trying to chat to folks I've spoken to on the forums. I met up with Chip Midnight the other day and was relieved I haven't completely hacked him off (well, Chip was a her at the time, but..). Oh, and I said Hi to Enabran but I think he was busy building something cyber somewhere. (And went to see Anshe Chung's offices because I was reminded that for all the stuff I've heard about Anshe on the forums I'd never actually seen any of her land.)



Oh, sure. I appreciate that it isn't essential, and that most people would like their own land in the end. The problem is that as long as it's happening, there's a logic that goes "why should I buy my own land to get started with, when if I was any good, someone would have sponsored me; therefore if they haven't, either I'm not any good, or I'm not marketable, and either way I won't succeed even with my own land".

An the level of stuff provided gets daft sometimes - as I mentioned I know a build that basically got L$500,000 stuff for free. That's a US$1000+ investment... whoa!

I will also admit that I am somewhat against the practice, not because it's "unfair" but because one of three conditions will apply: either a) the person who gets the land won't do a good job (bad because the sponsor got burned), b) the person will do a good job but would, but for the free land, not have built anything (bad because it means SL is depending on generous folks giving out free land to get good new builds, which isn't sustainable) or c) the person will do a good job but would have bought their own land had they not been given any (bad because it means LL are losing out on extra tier money) My attempt at a sustainable alternative system for similar opportunities, SLDoBetter, can be had by tapping your mouse on a roadside sideboard in James that is neither outsize, rotating, nor skybound.

Ferran and I started on land owned by someone else - twice. Friends let us set up our first apt and shop in Venice, then later another friend let us do the first Phobos Lounge in DaBoom. It made all the difference to us when we were first starting out. It helped us so much that we were able to eventually buy and maintain Chaos using only $L that we generated in world.

We have always returned that helping hand. Many people have called our land home and our shop has always been free.

If making Lindens is the only thing you can think of that counts as a payoff inside Second Life, I'm really sorry for you. Seriously.

What would you do if there were no Lindens, just Dwell? They could have built the economy that way, and it could have worked as a crude simulation of an economic system. Without "Linden Points" to "score" with, would you have hung around at all?

A lot of people collect freebies, find the ones the like the most, trade them around. Freebies are barter items in SL, even with the Junkyard, and there's a lot of "payoff" value there.

It's a game. The "win" can be anything you want it to be.

Yeh, I suck at that game. So I don't try and play it in SL. I play another one. You can play any game you want to... it's your decision to choose the money game.

A game you always win isn't a game. It's cheating at solitaire. There's a reason "game" and "gamble" sound so much alike.

The Lindens get to spend a certain amount of dwell and a certain amount of developer's incentive. It doesn't matter whether it's "real money" or not, it's a limited resource. The amount of that resource they spend on camping chairs instead of stuff that actually makes SL a better place for paying customers (which is what these things are supposed to be spent on) is a net loss to them.

The newbies-only money trees are not the money balls or camping chairs or other dwell-ghetto generators I'm talking about. I'm talking about the ones that provide open-ended kickbacks for dwell, that produce environments that are overwhelmingly ONLY attractive to people who are not putting US$ into the Linden economy. The point of dwell and the developer's incentive is to "outsource" the creation of attractions for paying customers.

People sitting in money chairs are no different from people getting paid to click on banner ads.

that's true of any "make money fast" scheme. And like money chairs, none of them are viable over the long term.

But an activity that draws resources from Linden Labs and discourages activities that do provide value to LL or to paying customers (by distorting the developer's incentive and the dwell market, if nothing else), has a cost that far outweighs its value to the participating parties.

Individually, no. In the mass, yes.

They had one. They got rid of it.

Er, no. If you want to play pretty much any game in SL, being noticed by other people is going to be a prerequsite to it. Even if you put up a build just for people to visit without spending any money there won't be any satisfication if nobody shows up, and I doubt you'd have enjoyed walking around in your giant robot avatar if everyone's reaction had been "yea, whatever".

Yep, that's absolutely right. That's why spending anything on a game, even the time spent in it (which is the most expensive part of the business for me) is a gamble. If it's not, it's not a game.

And if it's not fun to play even if you're NOT winning, maybe it's not the game you should be playing.

SL isn't supposed to be everything for everyone.

I support useful unskilled jobs because they're useful, not because I want to make an income for people who are so dedicated to being One Thing that they won't play SL if they can't be that thing.
Yep, I didn't pay for my Basic account until right at the 7 day limit, and I was absolutely miserly with my initial wallet-of-Lindens... but that was enough. Now there isn't even a 7 day deadline.

Again, I just don't think that's correct.

More money being spent on camping chairs
= more 'free' L$ in the hands of newer players
= freer spending of L$ by those players
= more business for the places they buy from
= more market opportunities
= more reason to do business in SL
= more land buyers and premium memberships
= more money for LL.

Less money being spent on camping chairs
= more L$ in the hands of established players who have nothing to do but cash it out
= new players buying L$, Lindex's only profit being the transfer fee
= extra-careful spending of L$ by players who have paid US$ for them
= focus of spending on the 'best' places found
= less market opportunities
= more new businesses bouncing because they have no niche
= more current small businesses not making money
= less land buyers, less premiums, tiering down
= less money for LL.

Now, of course, the dwell paid on the camping chairs might be enough money that it reverses the trend, and LL would wind up with more money if they stopped paying for the chairs simply because although they'd get less by the formula above they'd still lose less than they were spending on dwell.. but that seems a bit far-reaching..

If making Lindens were the only thing you could think of that counted as a payoff in Second Life, I would feel really sorry for you, too, Argent. Seriously.

The topic we are considering here is paying for beginning jobs and/or volunteers.

The topic is making Lindens.

That's why I have been talking about making Lindens, doing jobs to get Lindens, putting that metaphorical bread (actually not so metaphorical, in the case of SL) on the table, and so on and so forth.

Nothing I have said counters anything enthusiastic you have said in your post, and in other posts, or counters any of the fun ideas about what there is to do in SL, or indicates I have any disagreement with those things. In fact, I'm the Queen of Collected Freebies! I love them! So many are just beautiful in their own right, I don't see why more people don't collect them! Ask me for anything, I've probably gotit. I've spent hours collecting and categorizing it. I just collected a new batch last night, in fact, when I was exploring randomly (something I rarely do, since my computer sucketh, as does 1.7.)

I even have men's things, which I drop on new guy players in a folder. I even have a sub-folder in my landmarks folder for places where you can find freebies! And I drop that on new players, too!

My entire WARDROBE is freebies, and I like them perfectly fine! I have never bought an item of clothing. I do have a friend who loves to shop, though, and she sends me things, and I love them! She has a pretty good idea of my style, too, somehow! I have freebie everything, including furniture, pictures, etc. - many of which I love just as much as things that would cost a lot.

But we've been discussing payment for jobs, not the myriad other joys of SL.

coco

This isn't true. I amuse myself to no end in SL, could care less if anyone else notices. In fact, would prefer they don't. Mostly, I am in hiding when I'm actually in SL. I don't think I'm the only one who isn't interested in what anyone else thinks of them, their builds or their art.

But the problem is, the spending money isn't part of the game.

The spending money is just getting to build the game.

And if nobody buys in, you're not "losing the game", you're not even getting to play.

The point of healthy gambling should be that even if you lose, you enjoy it. (Of course you might enjoy it more if you win!) That criterion isn't satisfied.



So if you'd arrived in SL to find you couldn't ever be a giant robot, would it still have had the same appeal?

Errr...

There's a big gap between "being noticed by other people" and being a winner in the marketing game. And "being noticed by other people" isn't part of the game of going exploring, unless letting other people know you noticed them is counted as a kind of retro-notice. That's a bit too Zen for me.

That happens, sometimes. Some days it's just not Giant Robot time. Sometimes someone else puts on their own Giant Gobot and we have a Giant Robot dance-a-thon. Sometimes it doesn't work, so I put on a pony AV and give people pony rides instead. That's why I don't just do "one thing".

= More inflation.
= lower value of the L$ against the US$.
= fewer US$ in the Linden economy.
= less money for LL.

Linden can't just print money any more than any other government printing office can. Not if they don't want to get into an inflationary spiral and be spending two million Marks for a loaf of bread. They have to act as if there's a limited money supply, and that they have to earn money to spend money, and THAT is why dwell is a REAL cost to them.

I don't understand the first part of this message, so I'll just say.
I didn't want to be a giant robot until a few weeks ago, when as a result of a discussion about the effect of avatar size on the perception of the size of SL made me wonder why I hadn't ever observed the effect... because my avs are anything from 2' to 7' tall, and I don't see the world as changing size when I do.

Possibly because my av's rarely the same size for half an hour straight, and my physical size is close to the average av size.

So I got the giant robot to see if I could stretch myself beyond my envelope.

It worked, and it turned out to be fun.

You gotta be able to try lots of stuff.

Again, I'm not quite sure about this.

US$ stored in the LindeX holding account are not profit for LL. The only things that are paid to LL in L$ are sink fees for upload and advertising, and since LL can't sell L$, they don't care about these. All LL take are subscription and tier fees, and since they're charged in US$, the value of the L$ doesn't matter.

"But if the value of the L$ against the US$ got worse, content creators wouldn't be able to get money for their work which would discourage business". That's assuming that people don't take their new, cheaper, L$ and buy more stuff with them. It's possible that the content creators will get more, because when people can get more L$ more easily, they'll spend more money on content instead of being choosy. From the established stores, they'll buy several items instead of just a carefully chosen few. From the newer stores, they'll buy where otherwise they might not have done so.

The discussion I'm having is "what is the point of having unskilled jobs". If the only point was to pay people for doing something, then I'd be dead against it. As the original poster said, paying money for make-work when you're not paying volunteers is obscene.

So the question is, why would this even be considered?

What is the value to LL of there being "unskilled jobs" in SL?

The only value I can see is to encourage freebie accounts to do something for their Lindens that creates value for LL, rather than one that reduced the effectiveness of Linden Labs' payment system.

That's why I have been talking about making Lindens, doing jobs to get Lindens, putting that metaphorical bread (actually not so metaphorical, in the case of SL) on the table, and so on and so forth.

The only reason I'm talking about that stuff is to counter the argument that there needs to be an "unskilled job" for some reason of fairness, or because it's the only way to give people a sense of "winning", or for any other reason that doesn't relate to the Linden economy.

Lindens sold through LindeX and IGE are where the US$ that eventually end up in Linden's pockets come from. If the Linden was going for L$1000 to the dollar instead of L$250 for the dollar, then everyone's store of Lindens would be worth 1/4 as many US$, or prices would go up, and the newbie accounts would be even worse off than they are now.

Oh, and there would be significantly fewer trades of US$ for L$, because everyone would be trying to get their L$ out as US$ before they went down any further.

Now I don't expect L$ to drop that far that fast, but putting more money into circulation ALWAYS has an inflationary effect. It doesn't matter if it's in L$, in US$, in AU$, in HK$, in GBP... it's why governments don't just print money. And Linden labs is in no better situation to just print money than any other government.



Subscription: The only reason I'm considering going to premium is because I could get a few more L$ for my US$ with a year's subscription... but it's close. At month-to-month I'd lose on the deal.

Tier fees: How much Tier is paid out of sales and rent and dwell, in Lindens, converted to US$? Someone just posted that their whole sim is paid for that way. If people couldn't pay that tier in Lindens, by exchanging L$ for US$, there would be a mass exodus of landowners.

The Linden economy might be a toy economy, but it only works because it works as a real economy WITH the real economy. Everything Linden Labs does has to take that into account... because that economy is where they're getting their income.

No, the US$ that end up in Linden's pockets comes from the real world income that the users have (ie, their salaries or benefits). Not everyone pays their tier with their earnings, in fact I suspect the majority don't. Didn't Jvizzle post here to say that the Ice Dragon island is still running at a small loss in spite of its dwell payments?

If it really was true that all LL's money was coming indirectly from the sale of L$, then they could only make a profit for so long before the L$ economy dried up completely. If they're taking it out into the real world, it has to come back in from the real world somewhere.



Or everyone would buy 4x as much stuff, so everyone would have the same value of US$ that they had before but the buyers would have 4x as many options in the game.

You commented that somebody could "get a tortured prim, put it on a box and sell it as a sculpture at a nominal price". But who's going to pay US$ for that, even indirectly?



How many landowners actually make back their tier? I think they're the exception rather than the rule. As the game expands, either the commerce base will dilute (ie, more individuals making money but each one making less, thus less able to pay their tier) or consolidate (ie, less individuals making money but each one making more, thus able to pay their tier but with no reason for newcomers to participate) unless action prevents either.

I see where you are coming from.

But I'm not talking about these hypothetical jobs for a reason of "fairness" or to give anyone a sense of "winning" (or, more accurately, of being productive and getting somewhere).

I'm talking about doing it to get more players and more premium members. That relates to the Linden economy in that it perpetuates LL and SL. Probably a good return for a small outlay, too.

I'm all about growth, retention, and premium players.

coco

If you want money to help fund an event, check out the Foundation for Rich Content. We have money available right now to subsidize most types of non-club, non-casino, non-ingo events--up to 2000L a month.

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I'm not sure how money tree runs, chair-sitting and other turd polishing are better for buy-in than learning how to use SL's myriad tools.

It was before your time, but Linden Lab actually used to give away money for people who flew around and clicked buttons. It's not scaleable.

I keep forgetting, though, that you got here later and thus don't remember the very policies you're trying to instate were used once and are harmful to the economy.

They did? Tell me how!

I make my observations because new players (and some older ones) complain, right off the bat, that there is nothing to do and no way to make money. They are bored, and they don't WANT to learn to build or script.

We want them! And we don't need to have everyone be a builder!

coco

P.S. And what do you mean, it's not scalable?

Prok is right. Tekkies and content barons are pernicious, evil and anti-commercial.

No more scripting or building for me. I want free money.