Clubs = the all-powerful, can't-do-shit-about server thieves.

I could care less, alt or not. And incidentally he began the pissing contest with "YOU SUX0R YOU'RE WORTHLESS AND NOTHING YOU DO IN SL IS MORE THAN SHIT." Kindof pissy considering my message wasn't even directed at him to begin with.

No, personally I don't give a damn what content you create, I'm just sick and tired of people like YOU thinking you have even the slightest right to impose SHIT on the rest of us.



Start off with your own assumptions why don't you? Oh my, the club started after dwell was already gone ZOMG. We knew it was a money losing proposition from the get go, we don't have any backers, we don't have escorts or vendors. The closest we get to getting money IN on the thing is a tip jar which gets about 200L during an active night (and we usually spend about 3000L on that night). We built OUR club to give people a hangout during peak hours, and to give couples a romantic low lag place to dance during normal hours. In short STFU, you DON'T know what the fuck your talking about.



No shitty builds are the strongest reason for SL looking like shit today, if I see one more plywood castle with a for sale sign hanging over it I may just go mad, oh and the dozens of ZOMG Land for sale signs floating at eyesore height EVERYWHERE don't help either. I've seen well designed clubs, I've seen poorly designed clubs. My favorite to date is still a biker bar that I was never able to find again =(



Time in SL doesn't equate to "Not talking out my ass". Just because your a couple of years old doesn't make you "Not a dick" because you have an opinion and it somehow is "more important". Nor does it make your views right OR the only views. Quite frankly you threw down a blanket statement saying "All of _____ are _____ " and expected some kind of "Miricle status" to avoid being called an ass on it. Cha. Right.



Maybe you have, but your voice weighs just the same in the end, you still really aren't important in the grand scheme of things, maybe I'm not either but then again I know that already.

QED.

Your vehement anger is just sad and, really, pathetic. Have a pissing contest with someone else on your apparent level, because I'm bored by it. Adios!

Not about that at all Ryan, I'm just sick of people who have either the word "Content Creator" or "2004,2003, ZOMGBETA" next to their names assuming everything that wasn't done by that particular crowd is worthless/lacks contribution to the community or that somehow EVERYTHING they do has more merit than the rest. It's nothing more than sheer arrogance. Your damn right I take affront to bullshit like that, aimed directly at me or no. It is no wonder Prok runs around yelling fic all the time, only its not the Lindens buying into the bullshit in reality its just self delusion and self agrandizement.

Damn straight my accounts only a few months old, so? I fail to see the relevancy of this in ANY discussion at all.

Ciao, when you want to bring a relevant argument to the table feel free to come on back now, ya hear?

Please don't insult my intelligence thusly. When you begin yelling, belittling and name calling someone who wasn't even addressing you in the first place you lose all moral ground for considering your argument "relevant." You're irrational and childish and the discussion can and will continue without your juvenile contributions. Please don't address me further until you're going to do so in a manner befitting the alleged age you supposedly are to play SL to begin with. Merci.

True not all clubs are out of the box, and are a joy to visit. There are many, many talented builders in SL. I have visited many different venues in SL, and where the nicely built/decorated clubs are nice to visit with 1 or 2 people in them, they are impossible with 10+ people in them, which is probably one of the main reasons there are so many "Out-of-the-box" clubs in SL. But I also ask myself "why are clubs still so successfull?" Dwell payments are gone. Is sitting at 0.1 dilation and wading through an hour of chat lag, not to mention total sim crashes; really so much fun you want to spend your time frustrated instead of somewhere else?
It is impossible to have everyone remove all of their prim/scripted objects - but I had posted a game of bumper boats the other night, and asked if people would remove any non-needed prim/scripted attached objects, to find that everyone who came were glad to remove these items to relieve any lag they may endure due to these objects. So as a suggestion, and maybe a help to your neighbors, club owners could add in a suggestion (in their event posts) of this sort for people who may be attending their events. You will be shocked to find that most will comply.
Also removing any useless prims/scripts/textures in and around your club area makes a world of difference. Most of us know these tips/hints - question is, why arent more doing this, not so much to put a little ease on a neighbor, but to bring more into their own venue? Some may stay and soak up some 0.1 dilation for a little while (if you have a great DJ because that will be the only thing you can do is listen to music), but a few sim crashes later, you will be left with nothing but your black plywood box and dance floor.

[ot]
You DO know its because of people moving away from the topic at hand and degenerating into personal attacks that they are closing these forums?

If you can't discuss something without attacking the PERSON and not the IDEA/SUBJECT at hand... Go have a tobasco and shaved glass enima.
[/ot]

Back to the subject at hand. Not club owners... but the clubs themselves.

I have visited a number of clubs over my SL. Most of them are really well built, thoughtfully textured, etc. No, its the 10,000 bling-tards with /AO's up the rear, super radars, scanners etc that cause lag.

I still think by limiting the mips (cpu cycles) based on land size (when there is an issue at all) is a good idea. When the lag drops below a certian level, the limits kick in. That way if you are all alone on your 512 lot and nobody is around, you get it all.

Kind of like how cable-modems work. When everyone and their neighbor is on, you get limited to your "share" of the bandwidth so everyone gets SOME. When you are all alone on the system, you get to use it all. (Which is why most nerds stay up late at night)

I'm making a club. It will be private, invite only, not to make money and not lagging the hell out of the sim. I am not trying to even cover any tier costs, just have a private place people I know I can trust can hang out. Oh yes ... no casino or slot games, no money balls, sploders or anything else really ...

Not everyone is the same ...

Please. When it becomes ok for you to belittle others (someone, I dunno, you called todays... asshat? I may be mistaken) but you can't take some of the heat back yourself you no longer get to claim any highground at all.

It just makes you look like a flamer that cant handle a little backlash heat. And you used a blanket statement and got called on it. Nuff said, sure I fire from the hip and I am reactionary. But hey at least I can admit what my problems are. Can you?

My problem is that I've been around a lot longer than many of the people here and like many of the original people who share my frustration we've watched the beautiful thing Second Life was turn into a cheap sex shop that barely gets 6 FPS and that upsets me. I have nothing to apologise for, ergo, nothing to take the "heat" for.

I wouldn't mind seeing that at all, the question is do you allot a private space that will only ever see 2 people the same process cycle that a place that maybe has 10 or so group owners and regular traffic. Mind you thats not MY argument as I think a direct prim to land size to cpu cycle thing wouldn't be too bad (Literally you'd have to play with it).

I've been tempted myself to just turn off outside scripts if we get too much lag, but as of yet all we're seeing (even with 20ish people full bling ao blah blah blah) is minor lag within the club itself and almost none once you start moving away. I haven't been staring at my server monitor but I could probably give you better stats in a couple of days

We've also tried to keep it lag friendly though and not packing unused scripts all over the wall (you know the places that leave every single type of sploader/raffleball/manicmoney etc all over). Just one toy at a time.

Yeah and my problem is, I'm fairy new to the community, we're trying to give something back to it, my wife designed a club as low lag as humanly possible, we don't have escorts, vendors or even any way to make money off of the thing, she even made sure the exterior design was pleasing to the eye, something most don't bother to do.

And yet older players like yourself choose to condescend to us at every second based on year old facts and prepositions (Clubs for money dwellll ez monay woot!), get called on your bad behavior then it flips around to us being the badguys because you have been here longer and remember the good old days.

Yeah in some ways it probably was better back then, the mainland was prim pristine and looked nice. This is the way of civilization, shit gets built up, shit gets torn down, shanty towns get built on the fringes, downtowns once the most affluent parts of a city become crapholes full of gangs and drugs. Clubs or no you would have seen this, especially once aesthetics started clashing (and they did). This is why Dreamland is so popular, zoned housing. This is why my first house despite having 512 I could get was instead rented on a private island. The point is your blaming the wrong generation of players. Its your generation and the next that fucked it up, not mine, our contribution to the landscape is as of yet minimal.

A third of my sim's population evacuated when a club moved in right next door to my main parcel. I benefitted from it, buying most of the land and clearing it out to attempt to offset the burden the club was putting on the sim, and to keep others from moving in and putting up clubs of their own. I learned that the guy was losing serious money on it, so he eventually dismantled it. Now, for whatever reason, his entire plot is covered with a giant purple platform that reaches to the very border of my land. *shrugs*

People who had been to my sim when the club was active said all the damn floodlights were mostly to blame.

As one of the older residents (mon Dieux has it been over 2 years already) I personally don't think things are all that different than they were way back when. When I started we had our shanty towns of entire sims of first land (and you couldn't pick your plot it was assigned to you by LL) and other areas of new players. We also had or fabulous builds. The real difference then to now is scale. There were perhaps 100 regions back then and maybe 1000-1500 residents logged in at one time. It is NOT that SL quality is worse now than it was then so much as SL quantity has gone through the roof which tends to exagerate everything.

I have done my share of moving around the grid because of bad neighbors or because of club lag. Most of those moves happened prior to 2005! The final move to an Island did not happen until Dec 2005 and had nothing to do with lag or clubs or nasty neighbors. So no it wasn't any different way back when and in fact in some ways I think it was worse. Back then 1024x1024 textures were common so were listen dependent scripts. At least now most creators are aware and cautious in the use of such client lagging things.

So please lets stop the moaning because everything was better back in the day. More importantly lets stop exagerating the importance of join dates.

Just don't keep me and Silky up too late Cherry

I am starting a new club and i am trying to make as non intrusive as i possiably can...I am a DJ I dont script, build and the idea of making a alt and pimping her out to make money frankly does not appeal to me. i am not in this to make money im simply in it to have fun and provide a service to people.
Seems to me that if it where not for clubs and their so called stupid events then what reason would you have to make that flexi hair, that nice sexy dress, those blinging lag causing jewels that everyone is soo fond of? Simply put why even build if you dont have a place to go too to show off your wares?
Now what is soo bad about people who want to simply build a club where they can play the music they like and hang out and have fun with the people they prefer to hang out with and what is sooo bad about someone like me wanting to provide these people with the place? frankly the best input I got for my club came from my neighbors who were rather excited to see my club spring up.
this is just my thoughts on this thank you for your time and attention.

There are plenty of other uses for that stuff than to show it off at clubs.

The thing that is wrong with clubs is when a huge one moves in and sucks up all of the the sims resources by drawing in people and by setting out vendors, etc., despite the fact that they're not the only ones *in* the sim.

Clubs aren't the only thing that does this, malls and certain other things do it as well.

Regardless of who does it though, it's really not fair for anyone to use more resources than they're paying for, or to draw so many people into a sim that other land owners can't get to their property, or have friends over. If someone is going to run a big club, mall, whatever that does these things, it's only fair that they either buy up the *entire* sim, or get an island where they won't inconvinence anyone else.

Got to agree with LD on this one, even through the hot-head 'tude....

Us "nOObs" didn't create all this garbage, and the instruments of grief.
The people who have been here since the olden days have been pissing in the pool a long time, and now that LL has opened up free accounts, y'all are up in arms about all the wasted bandwidth... the griefing, and the clubz....


Well the people who just got here didn't create that crap, and don't sell it. And maybe a few of us are smart enough not to buy it!!

As far as I am concerned you old tymers are reapin' what you've sown, and trying to shift blame to all the fresh blood because they don't understand the "game" that you have created. We base our understanding of the SL world on what you show us.... because we don't as yet know what to make of all this... So far you oldsters that post here, have just been shown us nOObs what assholes you can be.

For the people who are new here, there is a steep frikin' learning curve! Not only must we learn a new navigation system, building tools, communication system, and scripting language. That makes it challenging enough...

Added to that we have to deal with a noisy collection of land-owning asshats that take every opportunity to berate, blame, and ban....

There's going to be some real shakeups around here when the new generation starts to buy in....

=B-)

The first poster has raised a genuine problem, despite the subsequent deterioration of the discussion.

Lets identify what it is, and make a few positive suggestions.

It has to be a problem when one landowner in a sim can set up a venue which uses up so much server resource that everyone else's land becomes virtually unusable due to time dilation. Suggesting they move is no solution. Because the land is unusable, it suffers a huge loss in value, and the unfortunate landowner can take a loss as high as L$8/m (12 down to 4, say). With a quarter of a sim that's about L$128,000 or a real world loss of as much as US$400.

Many people who have saved and worked hard for their land simply cannot afford a hit like that, and must suffer it out and pray.

No fair and reasonable person can say that is not a problem needing a solution. and that a sufferer is just a whiner.

So why is it happening ? Firstly, criticising the appearance of a club is irrelevant. Also, I personally believe that (now "script time" is limited) all this talk about scripts on the land as a cause is exaggerated.

In my experience the problem is agents, ie people coming to the club.

Beyond 20 in a sim, and time dilation starts to fail, 25 it's getting bad and seriously damaging any sort of activity, 30 it's almost unusable, and 35 you can do nothing but sit (if you can get in and to a seat).

The club in my sim never falls below 20, averages about 25, and is always way over 30 at peak times.

Lets assume that all these club goers are actively present, and actively enjoying themselves, (bit hard to believe since they are wading in glue etc.). How can the other landowners be helped?

Any club doing this will certainly feature in the "Popular places" list which the Lindens display so prominently, ie the top traffic list..

My suggestion for this situation is that by publishing this traffic list the Linden's take responsibility for the results. Every sim is frequently changing server, and any sim with a venue in the top twenty or so for traffic (and which shares with other landowners) should quietly be moved to a much more powerful and dedicated server.

Doubling theresources for the top twenty would cost LL about 10 normal-server-equivalents ( out of 3000 ). A cost increase of 0.3% to improve the places people go most. Seems reasonable.

But are these clubs really full of active, enjoying people ? Mine isn't. The reason it's full 24hrs, and we never get a break, is (I find by visiting) camping.

Why, with no dwell payment ? The answer is that the venue owners are desperately strugging to build up traffic to climb into, and up, that selfsame "popular places" list. Being in it, or near the top, has huge commercial value apparently.

So spending lots on camping (and I mean lots) can genuinely bring a rich return.

Whose fault is this? Not the club owners, their behavious is entirely rational. The one near me has recently made it into the list, is halfway up and climbing. Camping activity is running flatout.

It is the fault of the list, which is presumably used by hundreds of newbies every day to decide where to go first.

The answer is to change the list.

My suggestion for this situation (sim incapacitated by camping) is for the Lindens to introduce enough statistical variability into the list to render camping (to get into it)commercially unviable. Each day choose 20 venues randomly from amongst the top 200 for traffic. That would do it. Also provide the newbies with more diversity, as a side bonus.

My last suggestions are for us, the residents. We need to provide penniless newbies with more constructive ways of earning money, or at least less static ones. Even advertising on "sandwich boards" might help. Creativity is required.

Unfortunately, this would likely only help a little, as even walking about cannot be done by a newbie who is actually nowhere near his computer, but is at work, or asleep, with a "mouse jiggler" keeping his link alive 24 hours a day, as so many seem to be doing.

Alternatively, we could develop "neighbor friendly" camping chairs or pads, which eject the incumbent from the sim whenever the number of people present goes over 10. Even include a live database of camping locations, with knowledge of sim and chair occupancy, so that the chair ejecting you can suggest a teleport to a suitable less busy alternative.

The venue owner clawing his way up the list would never use such things, though. The list is the problem. It has to change.

So thats it. Lindens must quietly give more server resources to truly successful venues. The camping game must be killed by widening and randomizing the list which causes it to be commercially worthwhile..

And those who think we are whining should contemplate one resident taking a US$400 loss so that another can gain. You want game rules which cause/allow that ?

That's probably a max value. But 100-200 $ losses are probably common, and one club could easily cost its neighbors US$600-700 if they give up and go.

Either that or.. get rid of Popular Places altogether.

At the moment, there's already a problem with it - if you search Popular Places with the Mature checkbox disabled, you get several blank lines, which are actually Help and Orientation Islands. (Yes, I've bug reported this, but it hasn't even made Known Issues. ) So basically, non "mature" places are so unpopular that the default tutorials are beating them in the popularity stakes

If you turn on Mature, all of them are clubs or casinos and this hasn't changed in a while.

Of course, I imagine there's also competition for the top spot to come up when searching for "club"

While this is a good idea, camping wouldn't be discouraged any by it as long as camping = rising in traffic. Sure if they're chosen randomly out of the top 200 highest-trafficked places your time there is less secure, but there's still a drive to get as much traffic as possible in the off-chance that you show up.

I think the only real idea to solving this is eliminating that feature all-together. LL constantly figures this out over and over at the worst of times, first with dwell and now with this. If you really want to make a popular places list, base it on the ratings the land gets or something. Even if people run around asking their friends to rate them that still won't impact everything so badly.

heck, i have no idea what this thread is about, I jsut want to be cool and post my two cents worth....

this is it..

gin and tonics, heavy on the gin is kinda ickky