Petition for alteration of age restrictions

I know i don't stand a chance at changing anything by making this topic, but I have the right to my opinion. I just lost a good friend of mine this week do to the fact that he isn't a adult... It isn't like he was immature. I feel he is even more intelligent then I am. And I'm 22 almost. So I'm petitioning to alter the rules of the main grid. The Content in SL is completely customizable there for we cannot be held responsible for the actions and or created content within the system. If you don't want your child to have access to adult material then consider the "Teen Grid". I believe it should be up to the parents to decide if there kids can be here. And if the kid shows to be a idiot then they get banned just like any adult idiot would. Simple as that. I have lost 2 people i knew in SL all ready this month. but the other isn't related to this. The rules seem to be judgmental. I know you cant create a separate grid for idiots, but separating people by age is not the right way to solve the problem.

There are always going to be trouble makers and from what I've witnessed in SL, they don't last long. I have a small amount of friends as it is in SL. Most people never notice me or don't take me seriously because I'm 4 ft tall and a cartoon character. I like to have my friends within my view. Now the only way I can contact this person is by AIM or YIM. And I barely even use messengers because SL uses so much of my system resources slow me down with extra applications running. Plus it would be just more chats I have to worry about. My friend finds it very degrading and feels like hes being branded. As do I! SL was a large fraction of this persons social life. He seems to not want to be in the teen grid for that reason. But isn't allowed back in the main grid because hes not old enough... That is why i feel it shouldn't be the lindens making this decision, but the parents. Thank you have a nice day.

Please post your replys either ayes or neys. All opinions matter even if it is un solved.

I'd have to vote nay to this. LL still have potential liability, even if a parent gives consent, if I recall the way things work.

One of the best Customer Service Managers I ever worked with was SIXTEEN years old. Mature, responsible, intelligent, educated. Likewise, I've known people of 40+ who have not (and are unlikely to) displayed that level of maturity.

That said, I don't PERSONALLY feel that age is a good benchmark for maturity. But then, it's hard to find another that is practicable.

And then we get back to the law. The laws of the land use age as the definitive benchmark. Today? You're not old enough and may not be exposed to the realities of the world. Tomorrow? You're an adult with all the rights and responsibilities attached thereto.

This is a particularly sensitive issue in gaming right now. Try a quick google search for something like 'underage gaming' or read what the major newswires are humming with at the moment. Or refer to nasty little soundbites like:

"Parents who allow their underage children to play restricted games are breaking the law and doing their children a disservice."

Again, if it were me, I'd say sure; If an adult wants to give consent for their son or daughter to play on the main grid, fine.

But it ain't me. There's a whole bunch of people who smell blood in the water who are looking for political mileage in it. I don't want SL/LL to be the next Hot Coffee/Rockstar scandal in the media - warranted or otherwise.

And thankyou for taking a reasonable approach to your post and inviting both positive or negative feedback. I wish I could be more supportive, but the current climate I don't think would allow it. (I can just imagine the LL legal and PR staff cringing in horror at the possible consequences)

And I know what you mean about friends. SL without friends is little more than an onanistic intellectual exercise - with scenery. Not that I'm running down onanistic intellectual exercises, mind.

i agree it was a nice gesture opening the teen grid. but i think it should be a decision to go there or stay here. Take a glance at Furcadia. its a similer place to SL in some ways. except its 2D, and furry based. a large fraction of its population is underage. Some of them are very mature but others yea... But they still allow all teenagers to be there. and there is sexual content.

I personally dont go there. I went once and i had my share of it for about 10 minutes.

It's a tough situation when one of the more mature underagers has to leave the main grid and either go to the teen grid or leave SL altogether. Surely, however, you can see the bigger picture (including the law) as to why this is?

And besides, your friend knew (or at least should have known and most certainly came to eventually realize) that they were not supposed to be on the main grid.

Discussions may follow that try to define what it means to be mature, but what, in a practical sense (very important), is an easier (and reasonably effective) gauge than age?

Just let anybody join and ban the wrong doers? I doubt very much that would work better than the current system. In fact, in regards to your "Petition for alteration of age restrictions", I'd almost (almost) like to see the minimum age RAISED to 25 (or so).

HP

I almost (almost) said that myself.

I should ignore this insult upon my intelligence. I sure hope your not trying to flame. Please refrain from making remarks like that. It Isn't what this topic is for. The topic is a petition and discussion about whether or not parents should have a say so in regaurd to there teenagers having access to the main grid. And yes i know its doomed to failure. But you will never know unless you try. Hopefully this topic won't be subject to being locked. -.-

After seeing this:
/110/48/64687/1.html#post676593
I am inclined to ask LL to raise the minimum IQ to 130

Ahh, back when I was 14 or so, I learned MUSHcode and futz'd my way through C and ROM/Diku. So, yeah. In an ideal world, I'd love to see age restrictions lifted. But... (Here comes the "Welcome to the real world" commentary):

LL is physically located within the US. As well as being a fun and interesting place to live, the US also has some bizarre laws related to folks under 18 and "mature" content. We've also got a guy named Ashcroft who's trigger-happy when it comes to these types of cases.

The teen grid is a fair compromise at this point. Learn LSL, socialize, then leave neverland when you turn 18.

Frost, I know it sucks losing touch with a friend like you have. But take comfort in the fact that this is just a temporary thing. As soon as your buddy gets old enough, he'll be welcomed to the main grid with open arms.

There are a bunch of reasons why I don't think its a good idea to have teens mixed in on the main grid. But the biggest reason, is griefing.

Granted, some teens are mature, responsibile individuals, and some adults are just the opposite. But I think its fair to say that the likelyhood that a kid under 18 would be prone to griefing is much greater than it is for those over 18. Until Linden provides us useful tools to actually prevent grief before it happens, I think its best for everyone that teens remain on their own grid for that reason alone.

True. It will be a 2 year wait though. I noticed his profile is blank now.

LOL I totally agree eggy.

The comment was not intented as an insult or flame. Sorry if you took it that way. I know your friend is under 18 and you are 22 and I'm not trying to imply that you or your friend are immature.

I'm commenting that (in general) younger people are less mature than older people. You asked for "ayes or neys" and I say Nay. I say that 18 (in general) might be too young. You want to change the age one way, I wouldn't mind seeing it change the other way.

HP

Frost, come and say hello to me. I'm not cartoonist or sizeist. I might be timeist on occasion as I live in England

Age is certainly not a guide to maturity, but age based restriction is an easy way to try and pre-empt disallowing a certain level of immaturity that would generally be considered undesirable.

However, on reading these forums, I'd like to see the minimum age raised to about 60 or so.

OMG Kris I just reached that age - I can imagine about a dozen of us oldies rattling around the world - with no lag. Hmm sounds appealing lol.

I am against lowering the age limit and obviously LL need to abide by laws in the US and probably elsewhere, including here in the UK.

Alexa

I am against mixing minors in with adults on the main grid.

There is a question nagging me here. If this person was not immature and as intelligent as you state, how did he get found out? Was there no behavior that alerted a Linden to a possible age violation?

Only if you want to see Logathon 5 events.

Keep in mind that in large part the age restriction is something Linden Labs can do nothing about. They are based in the US and the Child Online Protection Act is something a lot of places on the 'Net have had to deal with. In LL's case, seperating the Teen and Adult grids and forbidding contact is the easiest way to comply.

Hi Frost. Back when I played *cough* some other game, one of my closest friends was a 16 yo boy. He's very intelligent and mature, and no one would ever know he's a teen unless he mentioned it. I would love to see him on the main grid of Second Life.
However, also in that same game was a 17yo twerp. He didn't like something I did so he started a smear campaign, among many other things. He was a large part of the reason I left that game. I would HATE to see him on the main grid of SL.
Also, I knew a teen in that game who was in a relationship with a 30-something yo woman. He was abused by her, and this is the BEST reason to have separate grids.
I have a 17yo son. I wouldn't mind if he played SL. He's much more mature than a lot of people I have met in the game.
I think parents should be able to decide whether or not their kids should play SL. But not all parents are capable of logical thinking. Imagine the same parents who think it's ok if their kids run the streets think it's ok for their 10yo to play. We would have 10-year-olds all over the US gathered around computers, giggling as they hire escorts.

Frost, I'm really sorry you lost a friend bc of LL policy. I could use a new friend though, if you are interested.

Hmm...If I had children... will never allow them to do the following:

1. Watch TV (until highschool) unless it's educational or screened movies. But they are allowed to own a gaming console (which is limited to weekends). That or we will choose the channels to be show in our cable.
2. Let them buy liqour,cigarettes,porn etc even if they're for the adults.
3. Internet without supervision (until highschool, but there will still be limits)
4. Be in the main grid of SL
5. Let them play in any MMOG that does not follow the Child Online Protection Act or a system that would allow parents to monitor their children's online activities (ex. unplugged program).

And a lot more. ^_^ People may call me controlling, I call it responsible parenting.

Given what I've seen so far of the main grid, I would agree that minors should't be allowed, not because they're immature or anything, but it exposes them to so many dangers and people who will exploit minors. It doesn't mean they won't be exploited in the teen grid but it lessens the possibility.

Well that's the way I see it.

I was about to say the same thing about it being a temporary thing so just wait and eventually he will rejoin you, lol.

However, I would disagree with Travis's (and others' typical) wording, insofar as I would say MOST teens are mature, responsible individuals.*

By "mature," I guess I have a somewhat different intepretation of the word. To me, "immature" means not acting your proper age, whatever it is. Therefore, most teens are "mature" and "responsible". In other words, most don't do things like join games to be griefers. They lack experience and make mistakes in judgment, but they have character and principles to the same degree adults do.

I would say the same of children. They, too, have character and responsibility, though they have even less experience and make even more judgment mistakes. But they are as individual as adults, and in many (and in the most important) ways, as deep and as principled as adults, and are far more flexible in learning.

The age limitation, though, is a legal and societal thing and LL can't not do it. Nor is it necessarily a bad thing. Overall, considering the content of SL, I would say it is a very good thing, and the teen SL is a wonderful thing for them to offer.

coco

*How's that for tact?

Kids deserve a shot at their innocence. They don't belong in such a perverse place as this one. The rules exist for a very, very valid reason.

Well, one of my guiding principles in raising my girls (now 15 and 1 I acquired when they were about 8 and 10. It was just at the age when the societal pressures were beginning to come down really hard, and a parent could feel guilty for so much as letting them watch tv.

I interviewed a sociologist for an article I was doing at the time, and expressed to her my worries. I told her about families I'd spoken with who moved to the backwoods somewhere and did a more sheltered back-to-nature thing that could make a citified parent like me feel pretty guilty.

She advised this: "Rather than trying to protect your children from the culture, lead them into the culture by the hand, discussing it all the while." She said she learned this herself from Margaret Mead (famous sociologist).

Well, this was great advice to lessen my guilt, because it was what I was already doing, and strengthened my ability to keep on keeping on. For one thing, the culture is not the parent's fault. And after all, you really can't protect kids from the culture, and even if you do manage to, they can arrive at the culture at 18 with no idea how to handle it.

So I just kept on educating and informing my kids, and discussing things, rather than trying to hide them from them. This included sex, violence, drugs, you name it - whatever info they needed at whatever age, that they could handle.

This meant they could watch TV, all that kind of stuff. It meant we discussed things, sex, the news, whatever. But it didn't mean that anything goes. I was the only parent in the world, apparently, who wouldn't let my girl who was 10 at the time see "Titanic," which was rated PG-13, I believe. Even her teacher was encouraging the class to see it. I didn't let them watch adult sexual things on TV.

If they did see something by accident, no big deal. It's hard not to. We once turned on the TV in the hotel on a Disneyland trip, and my girl, who was about 10 at the time, got a totally unexpected lesson in male anatomy, lol. She and I were shocked! We didn't know they SHOWED stuff like that on TV! (It was some kind of a sexy game show deal.) My other girl, 12, was in the bathroom at the time, and we razzed her for missing it, lol. (But I sure wasn't going to turn it back on.)

Nor would I let them play in any game they weren't officially old enough for, or have unrestricted privacy in their use of the Internet. They knew I would read their e-mail every so often, look over their shoulder every so often, etc., and they understood it was my right and responsibility to do so, whether they liked it or not.

When my older girl was about 15, she got fed up with it because I had made one of my infrequent spot checks and found an IM exchange with her and a boy at school, one she'd been interested in, that was BAAAAADDDD - on his part. My seeing that had embarrassed her mightily, even though she had held her own in the exchange and eventually broke up with him. She came to me and said, "Look, I'm older now. I've been responsible." (And she listed all the ways.) "I handle the Internet like I'm supposed to." (And she listed all those ways.) "I think you should allow me my privacy on it."

So I did.

coco

Monitoring doesn't mean invading privacy, neither does it mean shielding them from all harm but rather teaching and guiding them. In a world so fast paced as now, many parents rely heavily on computers, internet, TV to 'babysit' and 'teach' their kids when they're all busy with work. It may not be entirely wrong and it can be educational, but I'd rather make sure that it is educational.

I think that's why a lot of folks out there are worried about the content online and what their kids are getting into. That's why I'm glad to know that SL has the Teen Grid. I have nothing against their presence in the main grid irregardless of them being mature or not. I'm more worried about their 'online safety' than anything else.

It would be sad to see teen friends go but at least know that they can be in an environment that will be much safer for them. It's not completely safe (nothing is safe afterall) but at least it minimizes the risks.

This is my opinion of course.

I vote NO

Nay. For 2 reasons.

While I realize that age is not synonymous with maturity, it is the only real yardstick we have to go by. I have met young adults who act more mature and handle themselves better than some older adults I know, and even though there are quite a few of them, they are still an exception. I feel for them that they've basically been cursed by the immaturity of every teenager that came before them, but being mature as they are I'm sure they can understand the need for rules like this.

The second reason is the liability. This is not the kid's fault, it's the parents'. There are far too many parents who expect the TV, the PS2 and the Internet to babysit their kids and keep them busy. Rather than controlling their kids, they would rather other adults control what they do and enjoy so that their kids can be unsupervised. The first time one of those types of parents actually pays attention and realizes little Johnny is being talked dirty to by a half-naked barbie named Steve, heads are going to roll. I don't want a hobby I enjoy sued into bankruptcy because it isn't a good babysitter.

I have a nephew that I feel is mature enough to handle the main grid, but then I think of what my reaction would be if I found someone preying on him, and it wouldn't be pretty.