A question for club frequenters...

...I have a quesion/minor rant.

Okay, the concept of a "club" in SL has a successful idea for over a year now. And yet, the clubs themselves haven't changed.

No, I'm not talking about the content of the clubs... that stuff changes daily (ish).

I'm talking about the actual CONSTRUCTION of a club. It's fucking horrible.

Why do club-goers and club-owners put up with it?

It's all shoddily done. Black cube with "space" texture over it, big red sign, impossible-to-find doorway (that is usually out of proportion with SL avatars), annoying flashing prim "lights" on an annoyingly-lit dance floor, covered by a poorly-done particle bomb/generator.

The walls have holes in them, and are misaligned. The floors are porrly constructed. The floorplan itself is a literal fucking maze, a labyrinth that your 2-fps client is supposed to navigate through to get to "the goods", ie the main dance floor.

Why why why why why???

Why doesn't the club have an easy-to find entrance? Why isn't the internal part of the club organized in a coherent fashion? Why is everything made out of proportion to SL avatars?

More to the point, why hasn't anyone made a mint off of club owners by advertising a club rebuilding/design service? Most of them need it.

Just wondering.

LF

I agree. I have come across just one or two really outstanding clubs in my time in SL. I can't think of their names off the top of my head, as I was tp'ed to an event in progress on those occasions and didn't take notice - but that's one or two in a sea of clubs I've been to since I first joined.

I don't go clubbing very often anymore because of the lag-induced frustration generated by particle bombs and flashing lights, actually. It has to be a really special event for me to come away from the relatively low-lag safety of home.

As far as proportions - anyone got a guess on the average size of avatars? I know whenever I go somewhere I tend to feel like I am a pygmy or something, when, could she be tp'ed into RL, my lil av would be 5'3" - which I suppose is still not very tall (but very accurate lol) - but it's not exactly markedly "undertall."

Well, it's sort of a misnomer when I mean avatar proportions... you also have to factor in the camera view of most people, which is generally behind the avatar. If you have a low ceiling, or thin hallways, your camera is going to go "OMGWTFBBQ" and make it even harder to move around.

Generally, to make life easier in SL, you're going to want to make doorways at leat 2m wide and 3m high... hallways at least 4 meters wide, and ceilings no less than 5 meters from the ground (unless you're purposely going for that "closed in" feel, in which case 4 meters is okay. Any lower and you're silly)

And these are just general rules that all public-use buildings should adhere to... there's still a myriad of design problems in most clubs. But I want to hear others' opinions.

LF

Actually, that's not a bad idea, LF. If a reputable builder approached me in a friendly way - and offered me a notecard with some high-level ideas... and a rough estimate of the costs of doing so, I'd think it would be neat. I'd even consider it if it was both within my budget (L$ and prims) - and could be done in a way that wouldn't impact operations. I'd think a lot of folks would feel the same.

Not sure if you own your own home in RL - but ever get those hand-written ads in your mailbox, with customized estimates for everything from re-doing your siding/roof... or landscaping your yard? This seems to be in the same vein.

I think there's a perception as well - that contracting the services of a professional builder such as yourself are prohibitively expensive. If that in fact is a fallacy - it might be worthwhile to start a forum & metaadverse marketing campaign designed to shed this misconception. It might bring in more buisness for you as well

I've thought before that it'd be great to see more bridges built by getting adept builders and scripters who may not have built a club before to join up with popular club owners and the people who frequent them to come up with some rockin' collaborations!

I know I'll think this again. There is a sort of unfortunate subcultural divide, and misconceptions as Travis pointed out. There also needs to be more healthy communication and opening of minds, embracing new possibilities and working hand-in-hand for a better tomorrow of Second Life. I REALLY MEAN THAT. For now, something like Gravity Space Station -- you'll surely remember it if you were there -- is a rarity, but I'd like to see these types of builds be more than the exception to the rule.

I, for one, would like all club owners and goers to die a slow and painful death.

Here here.

And I'd also like to add that if you don't think like me, act like me, and agree with everything I say, well .. you are basically a fucking moron.

The only way I'd build a club is if it was my own (meaning that I've truly lost all faith in SL and am just milking it for dwell/etc, instead of creating things) or build one for a private sim owner, who at least wouldn't be fux0ring up the neighboring sims with their lag-hole.

The reason they're boxes probably has to do with the demographic, and the overall suckyness of clubs in general.

The only time I would be interested in building a club, either as builder or owner/operator, is if it was themed. I'm a sucker for themes, especially retro themes. Tiki Lounge, Pin-Up Martini Bar, Ultra Lounge, etc etc.

I'm constantly disappointed by most clubs in SL because there's no style at all. I can play music and slap on a dance animation on my roof if that's what blows my skirt up, so if a club wants my business, they'd better have an aesthetic draw my lag-free rooftop doesn't have. And flashing dance floors with bims humping poles ain't doin' it.

I have been to some clubs (a while back) that were quite well made, very interesting design, excellent quality building, no everlapping textures, zero particles, no annoying rotating lighting systems. Any lag came from Second Life's inability to deal with large crowds.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying clubs are not proportioned properly. Most I go to are fairly big. The bigger the better is my rule for building size. I like to move around and fly when I dance, so I like to have something the size of basketball court for me (maybe taller) plus another basketball court size room for the more stationary dancers.

I suspect folks who like clubs aren't particularly concerned with admiring the architecture for hours, but that what they like is a., listening to music with other people b, chatting with other people in chaotic and somewhat vulgar public chat, c: chatting in private and d: watching what they see as neat lighting effects.

Some peoples computers aren't slowed to a crawl by spinning lights and particle displays, mine isn't, and it is no fancy machince by today's standards.

Quite possibly any possible lack of building skill used in some clubs comes from the fact that it was made by a person who just bought some land and wanted to try to earn a return on it as rapidly as possible. They may not have wanted to spend the time to find an architect and spend the money on gettting designing and building done. They did a quick check of what actually draws repeat crowds and concluded that clubs did so they made one as rapidly as with the least hassle possible.

Lordfly's ridiculous caricature of clubs in SL must be a by-product of his technical problems in the game crossing sim-seams (problems I, too, suffer from).

I've been to a number of clubs that look nothing like his description, but his description, based on the usual snarling elitist attitude toward commerce, has enough merit because he can cite enough examples, but let's try to answer his questions.

Club-owners are often new people who just want to hang out with their friends. They aren't here to play architect and art critic, they just want to have fun. Often the land they buy, which can be cheap and far from telehubs (which is why they interrupt the aesthetic experience of Lordfly), can't support many prims such as to make it some mammoth hipped-roof Parthenon.

And club makers just do what works, from the same opera that brings you av-trapping malls and coloured spinning for-sale signs. People copy the examples in the game that they see *work*.

Club owners tend to want to make money to justify their expenses on prizes, light, furniture, events. etc. So they do what works.

I've seen some people try to make clubs that are different and stand as architectural monuments but they didn't work to draw the green dots.

The green dots wanted something different. Let them have the freedom to do so.

Honestly, like the other anti-commerce thread going in his section, these kinds of posts make me want to make a continent called SOVIET UNION where everybody with their anti-commerce and gigantist monumental art culture can go have fun by themselves without interrupting the flow elsewhere.

And most clubs suck in their general construction, so I'd say Lordfly is on the mark by that point. I mean, cmon people, at least try to fix the texture repeats on the sides of the cube that aren't the major exposed area, eh? It looks horrible when you don't.

Don't even get me started on the animated texture loops, *shudder*.

And yet, if someone tried to bring one of these glorious structures near your land, you'd wet your pants and start 6 threads about griefing eyesores and cubes of death. But that's not elitist, for some reason..

Wish I had been around when this was alive and kicking:

http://www.primhog.com/jkh/custom/cathedral.html#

I have to agree that many of SL's clubs are merely cubes, with a music stream, some rotating textures on the floor, and a few odds and ends of mature art on the walls.

That's fine if all you want to do is hang with your friends and dance, but it would seem, with all the club competition, that many of the owners would try to really set a mood, or theme, for their place. Make it something is is interesting and pleasing to the eye.

If your building skills aren't up to it, solicit help from those that can build.

In Athabasca...

As someone who is usually ,at one point or another, in a club, there are several "good" reasons for building crappy builds for clubs.

One reason is loading time and lag. Textures and detail work tend to slow down a system, at least in my experience. The more prims you have, the slower *my* system runs. Sure, they put nasty particle effects but those are all rendered client-side and can be turned off. But turning basic objects (prims) off makes everything (and usually a lot of people with attachments) look very odd.

Another reason is just time and knowledge. Like was said earlier, it takes a lot longer to figure out how to build something asthetically pleasing than it does to drop a dance machine and a music link. A lot of people are getting lured to SL on the promise of making money, both SL and RL, and most of the club owners either haven't or don't want to wait that long.

Third, as mentioned, no one really has gathered a listing of people who offer what service. (granted I know LF and Juro, but only by reputation) so most people, especially new "club owners" figure they're left to their own devices. Granted, most custom builds cost a hefty bit of Linden, and it goes to the "Why should I pay (the equivalent of) $10-$50-$100 RL money for someone to build me a wonderful place when I can just build these walls myself and people will come anyway?"

Again, prices are speculative and probably way off, but trying to put you in the mind of either a new, prospective, or even old timer club owner.

Lordfly hates my club.

What? That's like saying "your ridiculous low opinion of the Empire State Building must be a by-product of cheese." They have absolutely no correlation to one another.




Snarling elitist attitude towards commerce... riiiiight. This has nothing to do with any perceived rabid anti-commerce, prok. I like making money probably more than you do. Yes, I know, hard to believe... you ARE a greedy, paranoid, borderline schizophrenic, frothing-at-the-mouth capitalistic pig dog forum poster, after all.





If you have the choice between dancing in a laggy black cube, or dancing in a nicely designed area with a pleasing atmosphere, which will you go to?



Extortion works, yet most people decide that they'd rather not go that route either. I don't know why we have the insistence of "MUST MAKE CUBE AS FAST AS POSSIBLE FOR DWELLNOR" mentalities running businesses. Structure design is one of the most important factors in a service-oriented business.




But they waste more prims on "rotating lights", fixing up holes in their plain walls, and make other silly design decisions (we're going to make a rotating, 100-prim stairway instead of making an easy-to-fly shaft) that negate any perceived "advantage" of doing it themselves.



Generally speaking, artists aren't very good businesspeople. If I tried to run a club, I'd go insane. Not that I'm an artist, mind you...

...anyways my point there is that let the people that want to run clubs do it... if they had a proper building with which to do it from, they'd rake in a lot more money due to increased efficiency and a possible SL landmark (rather than "SOOPER BLACK CEWBE" on their hands.




The green dots want money, sex, and a place to idle their avatar with a dance script. That's so fucking easy to design a club around, it's not even funny. Obviously you can give them poo in a bag and they'll flock to it... what would they do if you gave them shiny marble and properly designed windows and doors? They might joygasm in their pants.



And you'd get about 3 people. The rest of us would enjoy watching you hemorrage money and go out of business, leaving us real capitalists more elbow room with which to make our riches.

LF

"The green dots want money, sex, and a place to idle their avatar with a dance script. That's so fucking easy to design a club around, it's not even funny. Obviously you can give them poo in a bag and they'll flock to it... what would they do if you gave them shiny marble and properly designed windows and doors? They might joygasm in their pants. "

Just a little, and unimportant, comment. I think maybe they wouldn't! You know, they might think it's too highbrow-looking, or something.

Know what I mean?

I've been to a fair number of these clubs, usually in pursuit of a contest of some kind. Because by and large, I dislike these clubs. Man, they are boring - people don't TALK. I finally figured out that it's because everybody is probably in sexy im's with each other.

Anyway, I looked at that club Ingrid posted, and yes - that one is impressive. So was that metal-spaceship-interior-looking one someone esle posted, though nowhere in the same design class as the one Ingrid posted.

And I love any themed things too, like someone else pointed out, and would go to them just to see them! Course, that sort of themed thing implies the presence of style and intelligence and often tongue-in-cheek humor on the part of the owner/designer, so that you automatically know you're gonna enjoy that person even before you get there, lol.

I'm not doing a very good job of getting at what I'm trying to get at, I guess, but what I mean is, there seems to be a rather large population of club-goers who just want to go to the generic club where they feel comfortable doing their thing, which probably doesn't have the least to do with architecture, themes, or good taste of any kind.

Kind of like people like their neighborhood bars precisely BECAUSE they aren't anything special. Whereas you and I, in the game anyway, might much prefer someplace well-thought out and would likely prefer the people who would design and/or own such a place and the people who would frequent it.

For me, for example, I can envisiion a sort of 40's nightclub: Dark, with many tables on an upper level, each lighted with small triangular lights, particle smoke hovering at the ceiling; and that upper level looking down on a large dance floor (also with tables around the edges), and a stage for a low-key band playing dusky music; with discrete, dark-suited waiters hustling quietly to meet your every need, while well-dressed men and women in low-cut gowns smoke and carry on sexy, low-key (but OUT LOUD dammit, I want to HEAR them) and clever conversation with each other at the tables, all of it dripping with intrigue and sensuality.

I would dig that, and take note of every architectural detail and stylistic touch in the meantime, and revel in it, while simultaneously carrying on (hopefully) my own mysterious role play liason at one of the tables with some handsome rogue - I think I'll cast Clark Ambassador as my male lead. God! Somebody build that, please, and hurry!!!

But I think that places like that - far from being a joygasm for most clubgoers in this game - might be a little too much, a bit intimidating, and actually stand in the way of their finding like-minded individuals to have a fun evening with.

I say, let them have their easily understood square boxes with pulsing lights, and let us enjoy our architecturally compelling builds, deep fantasy escapism, and clever repartee in a setting of pictorial social commentary with our own like-minded individuals - i.e., us, lol.

coco

Some of the stuff Lordfly mentioned were things I chose to stay away from when building On the Rocks which just officially opened last night. I have never built a thing in my whole SL but the concept was to keep it simple and as lag free as possible. There are no flashy lights or dance floors and essentially it is just a "box", however the downstairs has a very accessible opening where the vendors and a small lounge are located and all the "clubbing" takes place on the roof to enjoy the changing SL skyline. I would love some constructive criticism....feel free to take a peak and give me feedback, its located on the island of Mirage at 22, 222

I suddenly feel the need to defend my club's honor

Aimee -

And myself, feel free to take a look for "Awesome Rave Club" at agapeame on the new continent (havent got used to that spelling yet lol - just moved there a week ago)

Its a very airy place with an entrance you cant miss

Please forgive me for the present lighting, DNA is sorting me out on this issue with some new lights

I feel obliged to mention the late, if unlamented Bunker Klub here. Because I built it (with Aimee's kind help), it was a club, and it was f**kin ace!

I don't have pic to post, LF, but maybe check out the club in Rue dAlliez sim.

As for proportion, are you saying they are too big or too small? If you have 40 avies and their titles, wings etc stuffed into a tight space, claustrophobia and nausea will ensue.

True, we make things bigger in world then they would be in RL, but I don't look over my own shoulder while diddy bopping through RL either- size helps to accomodate camera angles.