llPushObject Restriction Explanation

THANK YOU CUBE. This is a step in the right direction. That'll be the first thing I set on certain parcels when I get in-world.

And yes, I wish to cast my support for the option to disable push on one's own avatar. YES PLEASE to this!!

The problem with that is that it makes any non-push parcel into a bunker from which a sniper can shoot at people outside the parcel with impunity, if those outside the parcel don't have the protection of push being disabled where they are.

It's like a paintball player being allowed to keep a hand on a resurrection point while being permitted to shoot anyone that isn't also touching that resurrection point. He gets to ignore all the shots fired at him yet gets to shoot everyone else?

In short, if a parcel doesn't allow push to be used on that parcel, then that setting should ALSO disable any attempt to use push on that parcel by anyone that doesn't meet the 4 conditions which Cube specified, REGARDLESS of where their target is located.

If I am in a club, I don't want someone firing off a 'super-mega chaingun with full sound effects', just because the target that he is aiming at is some poor sap walking down an unprotected Linden road, outside the protected parcel. It is still incredibly offensive and disruptive to all within that club, and makes it look like the club owner condones this sniper using his club as a base of operations.

I love this im a full supporter of it. Now people won't have to be worryed about weapons on outfitts as decore.

Thank you for this feature.

I hope all of the people who have had problems with weapon greifing read this thread and set the land they own to the this no push.

Yes Hiro, I was still writing all that while the clarification and your gracious response to it came through. I am glad to see that the high regard that I have had for you thus far remains untarnished.

If only I could kiss you, Cube ... MWAH!

The End of Griefing ... part 1.

Can't wait for the sequel.

So, here's the issue with that (this is kinda complicated, so keep hands and feet in the ride at all times and hold on tight...).

There are certain times that this could work, yes. Attachment pushers (i.e. type name in chat channel, then the push runs) might be one of those instances, though I hesitate to completely confirm that without thinking the design details thru a little more.

But, think of something like bullets, which you mentioned with your sniper example. The way a lot of bullets work (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong here) is that, when they collide with another bounding box, they retrieve the key of target the bounding box belongs to, and run llPushObject on it. That means that the bullet will be in very close range to the target, most likely over the same sim and parcel as it, outside of a verrrrrrry tiny amount of edge cases. To make it so that bullets coming from a push restricted parcel wouldn't work, we've have to trace the object that omitted the bullet, figure out whether or not it's on a push restricted area, then communicate that data back. That would be very processing intensive, especially for cross region firing.

There's a manual?

I do understand what you're saying. I am not saying it would be easy in all cases, or even possible.

I was hoping to avoid incidents of "What are you complaining about? I'm not shooting anyone inside your %@$%#$ club!", as some griefer opens fire from the middle of the dance floor. I don't know that there is an easy solution to that, other than the club owner or their security freezing, AR'ing and banning the idiot with the chaingun for 'disturbing the peace'.

Brent, I understand that unwanted pushing people is griefing however the attention on llPushObject is rather silly.

There are SO many other more annoying ways to grief than pushing. Pushing, in my opinion, is the least offensive since it immediately removes you from the presense of the griefer. One shot at you and you're no longer available.

Other methods such as caging, followers that spam with particle effects or sound, rezzing blocks in their way, launching projectiles constantly at them, attaching followers to them that spam rude comments are all FAR more annoying since they keep you in the vicinity of the griefer so you can get more and more of the same.

And, I might add though I don't see any mention of pushing OBJECTS, if you stop shields from pushing physical bullets away then griefers will simply launch streams of dumb physical bullets at you.

If you try and block physical bullets with a physical follower shield then they'll just use a non-physical bullet to get inside your shield THEN rez the physical bullets.

You going to turn off physics as an option next?
Then remove the ability to sense other avies keys?
Get rid of llMoveToTarget?
Get rid of llRezObject with velocity vector?
Get rid of llSetPos?
Remove target of particle effects?

How far are you willing to go? As a scripter I guarantee you that you'll have to remove the guts of LSL to stop determined griefers...and griefers ARE determined.

I make guns for Carlos Weapon and I carry guns...arguably the best in SL...and I've only ever used them in DEFENSE of myself or friends. I'd say the vast majority of our customers carry our guns for defense and the fact they are the sexiest in SL. Griefers go buy cheap guns or get free ones.

And why would I NEED to use them in my own defense? Because LL is notoriously lax in doing anything about abuse reports.

You're handing the community a placebo trying to make them think it will make some kind of beneficial difference. When, if fact, you SHOULD be taking the abuse reports seriously.

I don't think YOU even believe this is going to make a dent in griefing in the medium to long term.

Sure, for the next few weeks griefers will be updating their arsenal...then it's back to business as usual and your efforts will have been a monumental waste of time and energy when you SHOULD be dealing the 'grief' YOU have built into this world in the form of horrible lag and texture load times.

Truth stings doesn't it?

Actually, there are quite a few problems with this. Here's a nice summary:

/108/22/120870/2.html#post1147683

In short, the problem is that, duh, nearly everyone's going to turn this option on. If you give people the option "Don't let anyone push me around", it's a no-brainer. The problem with that is that there are plenty of good reasons for push, and LL seems to agree with this sentiment in that they implemented a restricted push flag for parcels, not a simple on/off switch. They recognize that pushing is important for some kinds of content, and that land-owners should still have the option of making use of it even when restricting push.

Giving a "don't push me" option is exactly equivalent to completely disabling push for people like me who want to use push effects in our builds. Since it won't be consistent, it'll look nasty and we'll have no choice but to avoid using it.

For a great example of an effective use of llPushObject, see Seifert Surface's transport system in The Future or the rooftop jump-point system in Suffugium. I'd sure hate to lose the latter, but if people with push off find it not working for them after they turned the option off, in their minds, they'll blame me that it doesn't work.

That would destroy non-weapon pushes in builds. It also wouldn't protect physical objects in builds (like animals) from push.

Why don't you give this one a chance to work before calling for more stringent restrictions?

What does this have to do with "push"?

They could be using a non-push gun, or even a particle gun, and it would be just as annoying for the dancers. Or they could drop a particle bomb, or a sound bomb, or a flak rezzer, ...

Yep, and we're going to see them all in the coming weeks. This restriction, however, *is* useful for one thing... shutting up (eventually) the complaints about llPushObject and letting the real issues with griefing get addressed.

Here's one. Someone goes into an area that has an elevator, or trampoline, or some other goodie, based on the functionality of llPushObject It doesn't work. They realize, perhaps instantly, what the problem is, and turn on llPushObject to enjoy the ride.

Gr13fr (Griefer, for those, like myself, who find that difficult to decypher,) meanwhile, has managed to put a prim close enough to the ride to effect anyone on it. It uses llPushObject to orbit players.

Player turns on llPushObject vulnerability to enjoy a ride, and instead gets sent into orbit.

Is that a suitable downside?








And thus are 4M x 4M pillboxes born. The above mentioned griefer purchases one of those little minimum-area signpost spots next to a Protected Land right of way, and uses it to orbit anyone who walks by, by using a detector trap with an effect range that stretches across the right of way. Also, a logger of who was hit, and if they went off-line so he can gloat afterward, reading his logs.

Really, this is a start, but I feel that for it to be really effective, both origin AND (&& destination plot should be llPushObject enabled. Better yet if the right of ways, if not the wilderness, were generally flagged push-off.

Looks like I paraphrased Ceera Murakami.

So, Cube, you're saying most push weapons are bullet type? I thought they were line-of-sight beam. Get target, apply push to target. Of course, I was basing this on little more than hearsay.
Well, you could still, at least, get all right of ways set to push-off. If people want to have consentual running gunfights, I see little problem with wearing a (Star Sensor ®) to parse the (Star Lyte ®) shots. (And for anyone who doesn't remember Lazer-tag. you're too young. :> I can even see how it'd work. gun takes it's position and orientation, and shouts its line on a non-zero channel. HUD sensor listens for this data, and checks its own position to see if its on an intersecting point. If so, applies force, or damage, or particle effects, etc, against the wearer.

Quick question, these push mods are described as only applying to avatars. What happens if a very large push is applied to objects? The aforementioned griefer could shoot up the place and not have anyone hurt due to push restrictions, but wouldn't all the physical objects in the club have been shifted three sims over by that point?

Is there any way I, as a visitor to a parcel, can determine whether the no-push option is set (without attempting to push somebody or handing somebody a pushgun and asking them to shoot me)? I would like to limit my explorations to "safe" areas.

SECONDED!!!

Hoo boy. Busy day. Here's my next round of replies, in reverse chronological order 'cause it's just easier that way.



Good question! I've added that to my work queue, we should definitely have something available soon scriptwise. It'll just be an added constant you can check against with llGetParcelFlags() and llGetRegionFlags(). I'll update the wiki once all that is done and released.

That's probably another thing I should mention, as of this change we've implemented a hierarchy so that region owners can restrict push over the permissions of parcel owners. This is usually for region owners who want to quickly and easily lock down their region without having to change every parcel. The parcel permissions will then have the push restrict option disabled.



Well, I wasn't saying that specifically, was just thinking of cross region pushing versus cross parcel, and kinda missed the point you made. Both Ceera's/your point is valid, I'm gonna take a look at the pros and cons of origin checking on the call, too.

As for the per-avatar based push restrict, well, it looks like you guys have brought up all the points I could've already (and more!). It's a real brain breaker of a design issue. I'm researching ways to reduce griefing and threads like this are a major help! ^_^

THERE.com has a way to impliment this that doesn't give the griefer a advantage. While the forcefield (no-push) is enabled you cannot push anyone else either. If THERE can have something like that WHY can't SL? i advise those in dougt of this to go make a free account in THERE and test it for yourself. Then come back here and noticed how SL lacks this feature.

As a lard land owner, i think it is great to be able to disable the push options on my parcels. THANK YOU

Cube!

Since you are looking for other ideas to stop griefing, please think about not letting objects follow someone unless the object is owned by that person.

There are some anoying objects that people can drop and they will follow you and annoy you, yes teleporting will get rid of it usualy.

There are also bugs (as in listening devices) that people can make hidden that follow you arround.

Not sure what if anything can be done about this but we can hope!

Re: giving avatars the option to disble all push: See Lex's post earlier in this thread for why that would break immersion.

I don't think this is technically possible - it would require breaking either sensors or movement, because that's all you need to make a follower. Of course everything and its dog uses sensors and movement.

Being able to apply "mute" to all objects rezzed by some avatar (meaning you wouldn't see or hear them at all) could work here though.

Everything but having your chatchannel text relayed back to the owner. It would be probably better if muted items/owners couldn't use your UUID.

However, the significant utility of the UUID makes me believe it should be limited to individual banning, even group banning, and not a flag that can be turned on/off, or people are basically going to be walking around in a world where nothing can give you a card when you click on it, nothing can move you when you sit on it, nothing can animate you when you sit on it, nothing can use your name...

P.S. This should not apply to parcel owners, regardless of whether you muted them or not. If you're on their property, they need to be able to interact with you at least to the point of making you leave/behave. And if you're on their property, you should assume you are operating under their rules until you leave.

P.P.S. I just helped run two cows out of a sudan field, and head off the rest of the herd taking advantage of the now broken fence. Linden, any linden, you have my sympathies. Especially any linden dealing with exploits and griefers.

You REALLY think that's what will happen? I certainly don't.