So what is it we're thanking LL for?

The bit I quoted applied mainly to my second paragraph. Poor formatting on my part.




Maybe, maybe not. I don't see facelessness as inevitable as you do. But inevitable or not, I certainly don't see it as desirable.


As for the facelessness and the resulting products being seperate issues: Sure, one doesn't guarantee the other. Correlation doesn't imply causation. But it doesn't exclude the possibility, either. The two things go hand-in-hand often enough that I'm certainly willing to see the lack of one as a feature that reduces the chances of the other.

I do NOT believe what I am reading, Thank the lindens? thank the lindens for what? making me crash everytime i try to teleport somewhere? then I read this bullshit about upgrading pc's...I just brought a brand new computer....It is not our pc's it is the game itself, I have a friend who is a premium member and LL has no trouble charging her account but yet she has put in so many crash reports and they have not once responded to her, LL asks alot of money from its premium members, You pay for something you expect to get what you pay for, As things are with these upgrades you would get better quality and service and pay alot cheaper prices if you were just to go to Kmart and buy a game, Atleast you would be buying something that works.
For all those people SL is working good for, well thats good for you, but it is not nessacary for
'you' to be rude to those that it is not working for, There are alot of people who can not afford to just go out an upgrade their computers, there are those that do NOT have rich mummies or daddies to go out and buy them whateva they want, and for some people SL is not just a game for some it is the only way for them to communicate with the other people for various reasons
BRB nature calls
Ok I'm back sorry about that, now where was I, ahhh yes lol

So I guess what I'm saying really here is if you dont like what you read on here dont jump the gun and mis-interpret what people are saying take a few minute's to consider what the other person is really getting at and try to have a little compassion for those that are not as fortunate as you are
Justa

Personally, I think I get a heck of a lot of value from LL. I've criticized policy decisions aplenty and filed all kinds of crash reports in the last year, but when it comes down to it there is nothing else like this out there that empowers everyday jacks and jills to become creators of their own world on the level that SL does. It is true that it takes a little time to learn to do this, but the fact that you CAN is just amazing.

I would never in a million years be paying on a monthly basis to run around in the imaginary equivalent of a generic can o beans, being shot at by ten year olds. Some folks find that to be fun and would rather have everything running like clockwork because nothing is ever being innovated. Sure LL is buggy, and there is plenty to improve, but the fact that it exists and gives me and many like me tremendous amounts of satisfaction is amazing.

The reason there aren't a million LLs around seems plain and simple to me: why would people whose dayjobs exist to make content offer the non-elite slobs of the world a chance to learn those skills and make money from it? They won't unless they're a little teched in the head or idealistic or have some vision beyond the immediate profit. I adore SL and here's why: it is effectively populist.

What other online world lets you create whatever you want and actually sell it to pay off your game fees, or, better yet, make an income from it? I can't think of a single one, and I don't know of anything remotely like it in development either. Why? It isn't in anyone's interest to do this crazy thing! It's like having the capability to make a big shiny wal-mart with no flaws, where the store owner would make all the money, but instead deciding to have a flea market and letting other people make some of the money. Who would do that? Well, all I can say is Yay LL for doing it. And Thanks! You crazy, visionary kids, you.

Ya know that Hollywood cliché when two street-hardened cops actually love each other as deeply as brothers but their masculine demeanors won't allow them to actually express that abiding fillial love so they must resort to verbal sparring as a sign of the depth of their regard for each other?

It's kinda like that, with fewer cops, no street-hardening, and without the love part.

Yes, in fact, I am the King of Analogies.

I laud LL and its employees for taking on a very risky venture for our enjoyment and dreams, and trying to create what's coming to be the coolest piece of software ever made with a tiny development team. When I heard how many people worked at LL, I was absolutely shocked; I had imagined a tech team (between dev, Q.A. and so forth) of several hundred, let alone cust serv and marketing. 8 mil in venture capital doesn't really go all that far when you're talking tech salaries, and I think they're doing the best they can with the resources they can; I'm constantly amazed at what they *do* pull off with the resources they have. I also think they have incredibly smart and dedicated employees.

Let's not forget that LL is really still a startup. I think the child growing into a mature adult analogy *is* valid for most startups. There will always be bumps in the road, especially since they're building something that has never been realized before...and yes, they are still trying to impress their V.C. investors with growth numbers, and the market as a whole. This is a necessary evil.

Does the week or so after each major point release annoy me too? Sure. Buts its known as growing pains, and I've seen the same thing happen with Microsoft's releases, FOS releases, and so forth. How many service packs and patches has M$ released over the years? How many times have I had to patch/upgrade my free, open-source apps, and Linux as a whole? The mind boggles.

I'm sure everyone on this thread has never had a situation where their code worked great in development environments, then had bugs when released to production...right? All the procedures, policies and testing in the world still don't cover every angle possible.

Regards,

-Flip

I have been reading the forums for the past two weeks. I have logged in a few times waited for everything to appear to be loaded correctly. Found it sub-standard and logged out after a disappointing time spent waiting. My computer is much better than the min and a little overkill in other areas.

So it's not my system.

2 weeks... I have been frustrated and mad at times. For the most part however I read the forums and find out what is going on with the program. Most days I don't even bother to log in now. When will it be fixed in an acceptable range that does not piss off their clients? I don't have any idea when.

I do know however I won't wait forever, just like everyone else I too have a other plans for my time.

1.7 where havoc 2 was not implemented fully. "but Mar parts of havoc have been running all along" lol yeah ok and I see how well that’s working for us. Not good enough.

I'm only ticked at this point because I see my fees being deducted from my rl accounts yet I'm not able to enjoy my purchases. Just how long am I suppose to live on "faith and promise"? I will wait forever if someone jumps in and volunteers to pay my monthly costs.

Until then I think I will voice my opinion about how my costs of being in or playing sl for the last 2-3 weeks have been wasted.

You can argue this point till your blue in the face and it won't make a shits bit of difference since its my money that's being wasted, and I am ticked about it.

Mar

PS: Flip there is a little business just a few miles from where I live. They are a small start up also and they think their advertizing is clever too. Unfortunatly they sell some real pieces of crap cars. "Lemons" but I hear they need a spokesperson, I think you would be perfect for that position! /end sarcasm

No, but when it happens it is of the highest priority to correct the issue with the least amount of impact on the customer.

I work in QA for online banking. If our code blows chunks in production our affected customer base is enourmous compared to the impact on the LL customer base.

We have a metric based on the number of complaints we get inproduction. Basically if 10 customers actually bother to contact my company and complain about their experience then that means there are thousands of customers who are also unhappy but just don't pickup the phone to call the call center.

I am not going to openly praise or criticize LL. However, I have redued my in game land holdings and have postponed purchasing an island sim based on the instability of the product.

I still support LL and their venture with my premium account as I am fascinated by the technology. Beyond that, I cannot offer more.

www.ebay.com
www.there.com

ebay is an online world?

I tried There a few weeks ago... OMG! Uninstall.

rofl naw just a virtual market place

You're aboslutely hilarious. Seriously! Cars have been in development for a century now. 3-D environments, barely a decade, if you want to include that lame VRML crap that started in Netscape v3 and Lawnmower Man.

Modern cars have had half a century to be mass produced, and owned by every family in America, not to mention world wide sales, TRILLIONS of dollars in research and development, and fueling the world's largest industry. 3-D environments? Not even a blip on the radar yet. Your analogy is simply a lame, lame, lame excuse for not appreciating the effort of pioneers, and by your own admission, you've barely tried to log in!

Regards,

-Flip

I don't do code but I am in testing and I do understand what you're saying. Two major differences between the product I work on and SL is that my product is considered to be a necessity for the majority of people and there is tons of competition. SL is not a necessity. People are being repeatedly told how unbelievable it is that they are still here if their performance levels have dropped rather met resonable expectations for improvement. This may do a lot more damage than good to LL than all the *hugz* & <3 that is being thrown out at this time.

The reason I say at this time is because you are beginning (reread last word) to hear from those with vested interest. The patient ones, the ones who understood and weren't going to scream immediately following the upgrade. The one's who can be heard to say "settle this" because their tier payments are coming due daily. Another difference between my field and this one is that if a customer is unhappy with my product, they are unable to hit a release button and stop the monthly car payments.

You seriously have no clue about technology and its implementation in the auto industry.

Hey, its absolutely anyone's perogative to scale back, and decide their level of involvement. I applaud your level-headedness, realizing what level of account matches your interest level.

When I read the ToS before signing up for SL 2 years ago - all hail to ToS - I knew it was going to be a bumpy ride. When a company is doing something extremely innovative (and trust me, online banking ain't - I was head of tech for one in 1999-2000) that hasn't been pulled off by anyone in the history of mankind before, their ToS will read like LL's: "We guarantee nothing, no uptime guarantee, and can cancel you at any time for any reason." Granted, I'm paraphrasing, but that's what it says, and that's what we agreed to. Of course its not going to be perfect! I'm familiar with the metrics you mention, but you're comparing apples to oranges. Most online banks were started from existing banks with tons of resources, money, and an existing structure. That is not the case with LL.

This thread topic about why people praise or criticize LL. I criticize LL when I see a major problem...but I feel they deserve or praise for taking the risk of developing SL, when no one in history has pulled it off before them. That's why they get priase from those of us who choose to see LL in a positive light.

If its so easy to make an environment like SL, why hasn't someone else pulled it off and made it more stable and easy to upgrade? I think that's the question LL's detractors need to answer, because its obvious that the market is there and people are extremely passionate about it.

Regards,

-Flip

No, I don't have a clue when it comes to the auto industry - I've never worked in the auto industry, and haven't spent more than a few minutes studying it! But I do know that there are a lot more people employed in the auto-industry than in the 3-D Metaverse Development industry.

Please enlighten us about what I said that was so wrong about the auto industry?

Regards,

-Flip

Well, Flip, for me, all the talk aside, it comes down to one simple thing:

When you get an upgrade, you don't expect things to be worse. And you sure don't expect to be told that for things to STAY worse is somehow "progress," as you were telling me in another thread.

Worse for a little bit - maybe. But substantially worse for a long time, or maybe forever?

That just doesn't jibe with all the other updates I've ever gotten on anything, games, Microsoft, you name it. It just doesn't fit in with the whole concept of "update," which one assumes is going to be an improvement, and not just make everything worse.

coco

I think it is pretty innovative. Also, a lot has happened in the past 5 years. Also, the expectations for uptime in online banking are much greater now than 5 years ago.



Well, I think it is cool that you praise them. I praise them with my monthly payment for their services.

I would also praise Philip Rosedale in a very special and intimate way (which I am reallygood at) if he would let me, but that's a different topic.

You'll have to line up for that special chance to praise Philip. And I'm first.

coco

The only thing about SL that is marginally innovative was a the core concept of streaming 3-space entities to a light client.

Gridded computing, fast 3-d rendering, IM, persistent MMOGs, etc. were all well established technologies; indeed, were they not, SL would not have been able to be produced.

There are a few things that are novel about SL: a) their megalomanaical belief that they have done something unprecedented and fundamentally irreproducible, b) their steadfast devotion to a beta codebase in the face of all rationality, and c) their desultory treatment of their customers.

Could it be done better by someone else? Absolutely. I'll even be so cocky as to say I could do so. Then why the hell am I not? Given the state of IP law in this country and the manifest conduct and deportment of the head of LL, I don't relish spending the next 10 years in court trying to get SL's superior replacement out the door past the inevitable injunctions.

I responded to your view that comparisons to the auto industry is hilarious. I couldn't disagree more and feel that your opinion is based on your lack of familiarity of the field. You've no idea how often I draw comparisions and analogies.

Your tone asking for enlightment is off putting. But if you have an actual interest in my thoughts and aren't just throwing something back at me because I pissed you off, I could go into your statement. I will say that if you're going back a hundred years for the auto industry and include the assembly line, you need to back up a bit regarding the history of that computer your working on. Being unique does not make SL alone in its field.

My area is more technical but I also look at the overall state that SL is at and make many valid comparisons...

...imo, of course.

This can't be repeated enough. I would ask that the defenders of LL's honor check with Phil to find out where he stands on a whole lotta love versus tier payments. I'm not saying I know; just that maybe someone should check.

Wouldnt 1.7 be considered an upgrade if the only changes made were improvements to existing features?

Upgrade, update - I don't know the proper terms. When they go to a lot of trouble to roll out something new, you don't expect it to be worse than what they had before, at least not permanently.

That's what I meant.

coco

ummm if i don't expect it to be worse than what they had before .... then wouldn't that mean it should be better?

Yes, thats what she's saying.