Rethink InforNet plans
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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12-09-2005 14:35
From: Chip Midnight I don't know enough about infonet to know that paid advertising was the main point of it. It wouldn't matter to me either way. How is it any different than Cristiano rationalizing paid advertising on Snapzilla as a way to defray costs? a) Ad distribution is a primary function of Infonet but wasn't of Snapzilla. b) Just "being a site that lots of people visit" is something that can be earned and that is open to competition. A terminal sited in the Welcome Area can't be earned in the same way. Now, the "only shots that are sent to Snapzilla can go to the SL home page" thing was an aspect of that, but that's now been removed, and LL did say it would be removed eventually. Are they giving details of a future development that will remove InfoNet? |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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12-09-2005 14:36
From: Chip Midnight I don't know enough about infonet to know that paid advertising was the main point of it. It wouldn't matter to me either way. How is it any different than Cristiano rationalizing paid advertising on Snapzilla as a way to defray costs? Infonet is trying to defray costs also, and maybe even *gasp* profit. There's nothing wrong with either. The bottom line is that the only way LL is ever going to avoid these kinds of outcries is to never make use of, promote, or in any way involve themselves with resident provided services or products. Is that what people want? If so, fine, but it has to apply across the board. No, that is not the bottom line. The Lindens making use of resident-provided services or products is fine. But only as long as there is equal opportunity for all to be considered before a final selection is made. And NEVER should residents be expected to pay OTHER RESIDENTS in order to avail themselves of something on official Linden Land. Never. coco |
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
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12-09-2005 14:39
And Info hubs are just a bad idea.
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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12-09-2005 14:39
From: Chip Midnight I don't know enough about infonet to know that paid advertising was the main point of it. It wouldn't matter to me either way. How is it any different than Cristiano rationalizing paid advertising on Snapzilla as a way to defray costs? Infonet is trying to defray costs also, and maybe even *gasp* profit. There's nothing wrong with either. The bottom line is that the only way LL is ever going to avoid these kinds of outcries is to never make use of, promote, or in any way involve themselves with resident provided services or products. Is that what people want? If so, fine, but it has to apply across the board. *pokes you with my stick you said the P word! hehe kidding of course shake your money maker  PS: BTW Chip when LL makes moves like this I cannot take it seriously as a development platform. These kinds of moves are pitting game player A against game player B to see what the outcome will be. I am not a "SIM", I am a busness woman! Makes seeing their real objectives "wonky" at best. |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-09-2005 14:44
We'll have to agree to disagree then, Cris. I don't see it as a problem. I wouldn't see it as a problem even if I had a competing service to infonet. If LL decided to work out a deal with Namssor to replace the current default skins with the infinitely better Second Skin I wouldn't have a problem with that either. I'd probably be the first to offer a hearty congratulations.
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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12-09-2005 14:47
From: Chip Midnight We'll have to agree to disagree then, Cris. I don't see it as a problem. I wouldn't see it as a problem even if I had a competing service to infonet. If LL decided to work out a deal with Namssor to replace the current default skins with the infinitely better Second Skin I wouldn't have a problem with that either. I'd probably be the first to offer a hearty congratulations. What if they took your inventory and gave it away for free? Would that be a problem or no? |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-09-2005 14:50
From: Martin Magpie What if they took your inventory and gave it away for free? Would that be a problem or no? I'd be upset, obviously. Fortunately for us LL has no history of ever doing such a thing and I have no fear that they'll ever start. And before anyone brings it up, Lindex is not an example of it. 
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Blueman Steele
Registered User
Join date: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,038
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12-09-2005 14:55
From: Cristiano Midnight Unless you are going to provide equal opportunity for all resident businesses to put information kiosks on Linden land Is that a flat out no then? Because I dont' see any way that EVERY resident could put a kiosk there. What about one kiosk that every resident has a right to post an ad to? |
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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12-09-2005 15:00
From: Chip Midnight I'd be upset, obviously. Fortunately for us LL has no history of ever doing such a thing and I have no fear that they'll ever start. And before anyone brings it up, Lindex is not an example of it. Well that is good to know, LindeX far be it for me to mention that and the GOM scandal no no that was all above board and its working out so well for both of them. Unfortunatly since GOM was forsed out they are not available for comment. However someone named phil was over heard saying "hehe come on baby hit 2.50" unfortunatly that too is so far just a pipe dream. Pun/humor/and sarcasm were very much intentional in the posting of this message What would Jesus do? |
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
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12-09-2005 15:01
From: Martin Magpie Well that is good to know, LindeX far be it for me to mention that and the GOM scandal no no that was all above board and its working out so well for both of them. Unfortunatly since GOM was forsed out they are not available for comment. They weren't forced out. They took their ball and went home.
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
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12-09-2005 15:03
I don't know... going back to the help island analogy...
- I can see LL choosing non-profit or freebie stuff to offer. Fine.
- I can see them buying resident stuff to use and putting it on their land. Fine.
- But I have a harder time seeing them allow another resident to put a vendor on Linden Land to make money off of other residents.
In the case of your namssor example, if they struck a deal where every new avatar gets a Second Skin skin and LL pays namssor, that is their choice as a business because they decide they need to upgrade their defaults. It would be a whole other story if Linden Lab propped up some scheme which made it easier for Second Skin to make money off of other residents.
I don't know... hell, I just blogged that "tax breaks" should be allowed for select developers who create really fun stuff to do. I don't think that everything has to be fair all the time.
but *this*, in the wake of removing hubs as an economic zone, makes me really scratch my head.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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12-09-2005 15:06
From: Blueman Steele Is that a flat out no then? Because I dont' see any way that EVERY resident could put a kiosk there.
What about one kiosk that every resident has a right to post an ad to? We have that now. And it works great, and I use it. Well, maybe it doesn't work great, since it seems broken a lot, and it's hard to SEE, but that could be fixed up. coco |
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Aaron Levy
Medicated Lately?
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,147
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12-09-2005 15:06
From: Chip Midnight They weren't forced out. They took their ball and went home. Not really. The Lindens saw the ball GOM created and said, hey, we want that ball. When GOM said, no, the Lindens said, "Fine, we'll make our own damn ball, and since we own the field you play in, and the scoreboard, and the bleachers, and the parking lot, and the road leading to it all, everyone will want to play with our ball instead." |
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
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12-09-2005 15:08
From: Anshe Chung Please, somebody explain this to me. I am really lost at the logic of what is go on in Second Life now. Linden Lab installs the system "telehub", sells access to its traffic/visits for more than 100000 US$. After take that money they remove the system "telehub" and install new system "InfoNet" and let somebody else control it and let THEM charge retailers for customer exposure. I am in awe. I am lost. I really dunno what to say  All you have to do is accept that SL is a game. This is typical game dev activity. Lowest common denominator at its best. You folks really don't get it. I'm sad for you, but not in a smug or 'hey I feel so superior' way.... more like in the way you feel badly for someone you see getting totally ripped off but when you try to tell them, they set about making excuses for the thief. It bothers me to be right about this. But it bothers me more than people I like and respect are being used to further the agenda. Actually, it bothers me most that people are letting themselves be used and apparently, cannot see the inevitable result of these choices along a path of progression. From: Aaron Levy Not really. The Lindens saw the ball GOM created and said, hey, we want that ball. When GOM said, no, the Lindens said, "Fine, we'll make our own damn ball, and since we own the field you play in, and the scoreboard, and the bleachers, and the parking lot, and the road leading to it all, everyone will want to play with our ball instead." Precisely. This will continue to happen until those who are working so hard to create new things finally wake up and realise -- you are being used to create the product that LL has no interest in making themselves. You'll get no credit, only what compensation they choose to grant, and if you dare insist it is worth more than the crumbs they are offering, you too will find yourself placed in the position of competing with the product/service provider and you will lose. Man, and I thought Bill Gates headed the evil empire.
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Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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12-09-2005 15:09
From: Blueman Steele Is that a flat out no then? Because I dont' see any way that EVERY resident could put a kiosk there.
What about one kiosk that every resident has a right to post an ad to? That would be fine - if this is our community, and these are supposely going to be our community centers, we should all have the ability to share information at them equally. I am really curious what this "information" is meant to be anyway. If it is advertising, what is the point of the Find window?
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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12-09-2005 15:19
From: Chip Midnight They weren't forced out. They took their ball and went home. oh thats right not entirly true they took home their bats, cus someone else took their balls  Play Ball! |
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Anshe Chung
Business Girl
Join date: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 1,615
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12-09-2005 15:35
From: Cienna Samiam All you have to do is accept that SL is a game. This is typical game dev activity. Lowest common denominator at its best. Philip said it is not one game but one country. I trusted him
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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12-09-2005 15:45
From: Cristiano Midnight Let's see Chip, a for profit business that is being paid by Linden Lab as a customer is being given tier free access to all former telehub land to put in their terminals, which they charge to be in, with no ability for anyone else to put their terminals there for their various business pursuits. Oh yeah, you hit it on the head there Chip, it's the exact same thing as a free snapshot storage service on the web. Um, no. Saying Infonet is "getting free tier" is like saying I'm giving them free tier because I keep a wall-unit terminal in my shop.
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
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12-09-2005 15:46
From: Margaret Mfume I've read and listened; still think information hubs throughout the grid readily identifiable on the map is a great idea. That it's been developed and will be maintained without diverting LL personnel from other work is a plus. I think Jesse said it best here, relative to Flipper'e efforts to sort out the event listings:
I hope Pathfinder's Picks, Infonet, the Helping H.A.N.D., a link to Flipper's alternative event listings site and any other developed package that anyone else invests the time and effort to generate gets placed there. There's certainly enough room at the telehubs for LL to sposor all kinds of resident efforts and the more information out there the better. Oh! Robin Sojourner's Texture Tutorial, too.; that'd be a definite plus.
It will be different to see traffic at telehub land because they've evolved into the useful community centers they were envisioned to become at their conception. Well frankly we have an infonet: its called find and classifieds, and what i really needs is a better search fucntion. If LL is not developing the tools that make the interface work then I don't know exactly what they do. Why should I go toa infohub to find information that should allready be in my find fucntion. Even if they do away with find and force me to go to the infohub, how is that any different than a telehub? I will go there, look up what I want and then go to the place I want to be. I run inot other people at the local telehub now, and could count the conversations I have had on the thumb of one hand. the whole notion that peoplego there to get where they really want to go is the problem. We don't need hubs, we need destinations. Take hub land and make it somewhere that people want to go.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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12-09-2005 15:51
From: Margaret Mfume It will be different to see traffic at telehub land because they've evolved into the useful community centers they were envisioned to become at their conception. And why will these "infohubs" do that? I think they should just turn the telehub land itself, lock stock and prim count, over to the people who own the land around the telehubs. Let *them* figure out how to turn it into an attraction, they're the ones who (mistakenly, in my opinion, but that's only my opinion and my bias against telehubs is a matter of record) bought land around these lag generators. I have yet to use any of the ATM-style machines that dot the landscape. If LL wants the telehub land to retain value, either turn it over to the market (whether that be Anshe or anyone else) or put something that ONLY they can do there. I suggested making it a "post office", so you had to go to the "post office" to pick up your "mail" (your stipend, stuff people had dropped on your profile, and so on). But there's all kinds of things you could do with the land better than sticking an ATM there. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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12-09-2005 15:54
From: Aliasi Stonebender Saying Infonet is "getting free tier" is like saying I'm giving them free tier because I keep a wall-unit terminal in my shop. Well, you are. |
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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12-09-2005 15:59
From: Jake Reitveld Well frankly we have an infonet: its called find and classifieds, and what i really needs is a better search fucntion. If LL is not developing the tools that make the interface work then I don't know exactly what they do. Why should I go toa infohub to find information that should allready be in my find fucntion.
Even if they do away with find and force me to go to the infohub, how is that any different than a telehub? I will go there, look up what I want and then go to the place I want to be. I run inot other people at the local telehub now, and could count the conversations I have had on the thumb of one hand.
the whole notion that peoplego there to get where they really want to go is the problem. We don't need hubs, we need destinations. Take hub land and make it somewhere that people want to go. Excellent points Jake! |
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Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
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12-09-2005 16:05
From: Aliasi Stonebender Um, no.
Saying Infonet is "getting free tier" is like saying I'm giving them free tier because I keep a wall-unit terminal in my shop. You are. prim limits are part of tier, and if you let them put a wall terminal in your shop, you are giving them at least one prim. If 112 people do that, they are getting the equivalent of a 512. if every user in Sl does it, they are getting a free sim or two.
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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Editorial content in Infonet
12-09-2005 16:07
I started a thread on this point, and i am posting my post here as well because I feel so strongly that the editorial content in InfoNet is ethically wrong, as well as violating the TOS/CS.
Here is a copy & paste of my post that started the thread entitled "Second Hell Tourbus: worst places in SL:"
Second Hell Tourbus: worst places in SL accordint to Infonet
If i were to publish a list of teh worst places in SL, tag my list Second Hell, name names and places,,,hand my list out in world and perhaps post it on the forums... wow, how long would it take for me to be AR and sanctioned by LL.
A New York minute I would guess.
But guess who is getting away with that right now, and with the blessings of LL? You got it....Infonet. The so called SL information system placed at WA and hubs by Linden Lab.
First when you look at the Infonet terminal you encounter a large icon you can click to access the category "Second Hell Tourbus...the worst places in SL."
Once you click you get buttons with various notes to guide us throuh the worse SL has to offer. This is what I found today at the Welcome Area Infonet terminal:
First stop on the Second Hell tourbus was "Dione's Designs." I have never been there but I bet old Dione is a paying member of SL and doesnt appreaciate beiing the first stop on the LL sanctioned directory list of the worst places in SL.
The description of just what is wrong with poor old Diones build has been replaced with some comments about law suits, but old Diones name remains top on the list.
Another part of the list of worst places in SL includes a section entitled "walls & people scoops." Who have we here on this Second Hell Tourbus stop? When you click you receive a note card that lists these following member builds as the worst in SL:
Freebies & More
Hot Gear
Warmouth Telehub Stores
Shinda Telehub
Bear Telehub Mall
How interesting that the this "objective" Linden Lab santioned directory for the profit of one member that charges for inclusion in the directory is allowed to violate the TOS/CS with Linden blessings, at the WA, and at hubs.
What does infonet have to say about this list of second hell places? The note the infonet terminal gives out on this states:
Second Hell Tourbus
Intro: Welcome to Hell
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The Second Hell Tourbus is a weekly tour of Second Life's worst places and people. We're talking the ugliest offensive builds, the most expensive stores, worlds biggest rip offs, and the con-artists of SL.
We will take you on a tour through hell.... and you'll thank us for it. Welcome to the tourbus.
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Disclaimer: InfoNet Systems is not responsible for articles relating to the Second Hell Tourbus as they are controlled by a third party publishing group. As a result, InfoNet Systems is un-able to answer any queries relating to the Second Hell Tourbus.
Well gee...no accountability for best of and worst of determinations, and TOS/CS violations occuring at the WA and hubs with Linden blessings. Explain that one to me....
I am beginning to wonder whether LL introduced the presence of Infonet at the WA and hubs at this time in order to deflect attention away from the decision to elimiate telehubs, a decision that is costing a loss of thousands of dollars to many members.
What entitles the member who owns infonet to publish her totally subjective list of the best and worst of SL at all hubs and in the WA. This is so unfair to the members listed in this bullshit list and the fact that Linden is sponsoring this activity is unconscionable.
GET RID OF THE BEST OF WORST OF EDITORIAL BULLSHIT ON INFONET AS LONG AS IT IS A LINDEN SANCITONED FEATURE LOCATED AT HUBS AND WA.
Who will be on the Seconf Hell Tourbus, worst of SL list next week...whoever makes this member angry? Hey the members who publish and distrubute this BS should be abuse reported...does that include Linden lab employees too? According to the TOS/CS...why YES it does!
Isnt it ironic that the information directory LL will allow placed on Linden hub land in Warmouth, Shinda & Bear will state those very locations are on the Second Hell Tourbus list of the worst of SL.
Poor old Dione, all she/he wanted was a little business in SL...who will be next? Maybe I will since I am criticizing Infonet, or maybe you will be if you criticize or if the member/owner deosnt like you.
This is a lot of power that LL has given one small group of members. Yes, a comprehensive information directory is needed in SL..but a Linden backed business that charges for inclusion and keeps the profits, and includes a subjective best of and worst of list is unacceptable.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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12-09-2005 16:23
I do wonder how things will turn out for Anshe.
It doesn't matter if you like her or not.
Perhaps that investment was yours or mine? She seems very quiet for someone who has lost so much.
Approximately 30,000 USD spent on land advertised as 'hub land' - who can say they would not be upset? I've seen near as much fuss over 4096m plots.
Also, who can fault Squagmire - this is not Squagmire's doing. Personally I think the R4 is well made.
As for the terminal not optimised for hub land - how could it be? Does anyone think Squagmire was somehow part of a dark conspiracy that knew months in advance this opportunity would happen?
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