Please reconsider closing the Classifieds Forums

The Messenger sells classified ad space for just $100L per ad.


Darn it! This is the wrong thread! I thought this was the "Toot your own horn" thread....

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It won't solve the L$250 fee, but its better than nothing I s'pose..

Keep the classified forums.

And to those who keep preaching that thinking up new and betters ways is better than trying to keep the forums open;*edited* do it instead of telling everyone else what they should be doing.

I am the same way. While I use the forums from time to time to announce new stuff, I mostly use them to get a good view of what is out there for sale that I might be interested in. I don't like any of the web store sites, no offense to them, I just don't find them enjoyable to browse. These forums have been a great way to keep abreast of what is out there. I do actually enjoy going to stores and checking out new areas, so that is another reason why web sales are a bust for me - I prefer to shop in world. I think the combination of the in world classifieds and these forums would be a great resource and that these forums should remain. Switch them to thread date sorting, not post date, and hell even go back to post only - but don't remove them altogether please.

jonquille, remind me never to get on your bad side.

This is such an obvious (for its ease of implementation) solution to the bumping friends problem, what do you think held this recommendation back?

I tell that Jonquille all the time that she needs to learn to not hold back, to really say what she feels, but I think her shyness gets the best of her Maybe someday she will let loose

I can't imagine it is a technical limitation, though perhaps it could be. I know my forum software can do it easily so I imagine this one can as they are pretty feature similar and this is pretty advanced forum software. I have wondered that myself as it has been suggested many times.

If they're going to kill the whole classifieds block, are they going to kill off the Products Wanted forum as well?

So creators or wannabee creators can't get feedback from the customer base unless the customer ponies up L$250?

what I have loved about the Classifieds is that it is a positive spot on forums, which is definitely lacking in most other areas of forums. I go from reading someone cussing about double stacked sims or whatever to reading a gushing post about Neph's new clothes, and it provides balance for me. I am definitely addicted to forums as much as to SL, it's just hard to read 50 negative comments without having a break in between to read the friends of the designers gushing about new skins and such.

Also...if LL was paying attention to some of the posts in the 50 or so protest threads about closing classifieds, they would see that people are much more immersed in the SL world than they may have thought. People are freely admitting to reading forums all day while AT WORK, and then logging in after work to do their shopping. That tells me that they are spending WHOLE DAYS immersed in their second lives (prob. not good while at work tho), and now SL is closing one of the big avenues of the platform--shopping with convenience. I really don't believe only 3% of users read this forum. I believe only 3% POST on the forum...

and what was wrong with gushing anyway? Did anyone HAVE to read the gushing other than the designer? Does gushing influence my buying habits (no), or hurt my business (no), or make one designer more popular for me than others (no). I base my buying decisions on a whole complex, roundabout "woman logic" (as Mulch callls it), and having classifieds has definitely saved me some time and money, which I spend in other ways in SL (contributing to Katrina Relief, Walk of Life, buying land, etc.)

L$250 does seem too high for a flat rate. Why not have a "pick what you pay" scale? Basically, you can pay whatever you want to be included in the classified ads, but its ordered by the AMOUNT you pay in descending order...sort of the eBay model, cheap to list, expensive to be on the front page.

This allows everyone to be included while still providing a decent sized economic sink, which is sorely needed. That could also be part of the reason to remove the classified forums, and a good one at that: to encourage everyone to use the in world advertising system, which like most advertising, costs money. This is good for all of us, as it provides an economic sink which will help balance the L$ / US$ value.

Again, I agree the in world tools should be improved before yanking the forum classifieds, but I can see some of the reasons why LL would want to remove them.

Regards,

-Flip

This is a very interesting idea, Flip. It's sort of like the way you can decide how often you want your ad to appear on the MetaAdverse billboards in-world. It would be nice to have more of a choice about how much to pay.

I agree please reconsider...

The fee is to high for the "total" newbie...

This equates to about 50 cents per week. There is usually a lot of noise concerning the cost of buying lindens in order to enjoy Second Life relative to equivalent FL expenditures. The cost of a movie ticket, a fast food meal, and in this case, a pack of gum, not even a candy bar. Why the different standard for advertising? Shouldn't startup business costs which exceed initial profits be expected?

Did using the "f" word suddenly become a no-no in forums? sheesh...

Thank you.

OHHH, WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN, OMFG, THE CHILDREN, GOD SAVE THE CHILDREN

Listen, when I started my business, I converted about $40 US into L$, which resulted in about L$10,000. I used that initial investment to pay for rents, pay for scripting services and a bunch of other things. My ROI was fantastic, but I wouldn't have been able to get anything without the initial investment.

Same thing when I developed my siegeBot. I spent something like $40 on development costs of one sort or another. I quickly recouped the initial outlay.

You have to spend money to make money. Every business requires at least some initial investment. If I could do it with barely any money in college, anyone can. Maybe the tough realities of making that sort of thing happen on a shoestring will impress upon folks why I have so little regard for the OH, THINK OF THE POOR NEWBIES argument. You need to plan and you need to back up your business with an investment. The initial investment in an SL business is so miniscule more often than not, I really don't buy into the excuses.

I was going to post a whole bunch of reasons why I want the classifieds to stay (not like we have a choice anyways) but its all been said already. I will simply just say, please Lindens, reconsider your decision.

MJ

And how much do you charge for your items, Enabran? Will the payoff be as much for someone who charges $20L - $50L for their items as it will for someone who charges $500L - $1000L? Not even close.

Maybe we should all up our prices to eat up the cost of the advertising. With the stipends being cut, and prices being raised, that would really stick it to those who don't have the RL money to fork out for Lindens and items they can only use in a 'platform.' Screw 'em if they won't buy Lindens. That'll teach 'em for not having a larger entertainment budget. Get those low-lifes (and students who's mummy and dadums don't pay their way, and people with jobs that don't pay a lot, and people who don't think a game is worth more that $30 or so a month) out of here! (See? I can do hyperbole too!)

The metaverse is serious business.

unless the space/coding effort will be put into a "i.m. from forums into game" functionality...then i guess the forums will hold nothing for me any longer...all ive ever used them for is looking at products and events and such that are new while at work...

when i can be in world, i want to spend that time with my friends there, not scrolling/searching some classified ads...I am sorry to any store owners out there...you will be wasting the 250L$ on ad space as far as im concerned.

margaret & enabran,

i think you're arguments hold true for a RL business. however, a lot of people are not starting businesses in SL with the goal of making RL profits. i know a lot of people who use whatever profit they get to pay for tier fees, upload fees, etc. having to pay an additional L$500 a month takes a big chunk out of that. not everyone is out to make $ in SL.

You know, Enabran, I'm not in business myself but I do pay my way to enjoy SL. It's the evaluation of 250 lindens as a lot which is what I'm wondering about. It's just a different view than has usually been presented to people feeling the cost to play the game is too high.

Adding my support too.

Mere tourists! Who needs 'em?!!!

That's actually a very complex question.

First, my stuff is between L$299 and L$749.

Second, the payoff depends primarily upon the balance between margin, the difference between the cost of the goods (including marketing) and the final selling price of the goods, and volume, which is the amount of goods sold.

Let's say Enabran sells siegeBot T-Shirts for L$50 (I once considered this, in fact).

They only cost me about two hours to make. Because it's a hobby, I'll pay myself just under minimum wage. The shirt costs me ten bucks to make. Convert that into L$ and we're looking , say, L$2500.

So we're L$2500 in the hole. Plus two weeks of marketing via one classified ad, that's L$2750. If I sell at L$50, I will need 55 shirt sales to break even.

If I sell 50 shirts at L$50 in two weeks, I haven't quite made enough to cover costs; that's L$2500.

So my margin on that isn't very good. If I increase to L$100 a shirt, that's a bit better and I end up with something close to a 50% margin.

Ah, but that's the tricky part. What if increasing your margins impacts your volume adversely? The concept of "fair market value" comes into play here and it is very difficult to juggle. You must balance the market's interest in paying something for your product against your own expenditures and need for reward. Additionally, pricing your stuff too cheap may confer "junkiness" upon it and impact sales as well.

More fun stuff: Because we're talking about intellectual property, here, there are no raw materials costs. Which means you can take a serious hit on margin and make it up on volume. Maybe I'm only selling the shirts for L$10, but I'm selling a whole lot more than I would have if they were L$50. If that works for me, woot woot.



I think you're getting a little touchy here, but I understand your disappointment at losing free advertising impressions. I'm not in favor of removing the classified forums, either, but I don't spend my time stewing in disappointments, particularly with regard to business matters. If the reality is classifieds forums are going to be gone, a viable business will need to get rolling on alternatives and in that case I really don't feel like L$250 is outrageous or out of reach.

If that means you need to adjust your prices to meet market demands... well, that's business for you. I doubt it's going to be nearly as dramatic as all this, though.

The cost to play the game is not to high as it is free.

The cost to play the game as you may like may be considerably more than that.

You don't NEED money to play this game. There's enough free stuff out there that its not a necessity. I don't even think you need to spend money to get a business started. There are other ways to advertise your clothes. There are several designers who have given me clothing and simply by wearing it I've turned other people on to their clothes -- and myself bought many other things in their collections. Have a nifty gadget? Give it to some of your friends and ask them to show it around... then price it affordably.

Need vendor space? Go talk to Angel Ciquetti (spelling is wrong) at the Heaven and Hell Carnival. She's giving free vendor space to people trying to get started until Nov or Dec. There are other people who do this too -- Angel is just the only person I know about right off the top of my head.

I don't think 250L is abnormally high to advertise. I don't think the advertising is necessary. I think if you think its necessary then save your pennies and advertise with the Metaverse Messenger or some avenue like that because I'm not sure that the Linden method will be used much. And, of course, give away freebies on the SL Boutique and post in the SLExchange classified forums. I spent tons of money at Deadly Nightshade's establishment all because of the awesome freebie pack she gives away.

None of this, of course, is a good reason for LL to close the classified forums and I really wish they wouldn't. I'm not sure why they want to take this to an in-game functionality rather than leaving the classified open but, at the risk of voicing yet another opinion that doesn't mesh with the rest of the pack, I don't think that 250L is that bad a fee or so high that its a good reason for them to leave the classified forums open. If the fee is too high, then they could lower the fee and STILL close the classifed forums.

They shouldn't close the forums because people like to browse the new stuff during the day at work or whatever. They shouldn't close the forums because its a great place for people to find jobs and jobs to find people. They shouldn't close the classified forums because they are popular amongst the forum people (as evidenced by this thread). There are a lot of reasons why they shouldn't close the forums but 250L being too high a fee is not one of them.