"Responsible" W-Hats stand up please!

When you consistently harass and bad mouth people, when you log into several of your alts to neg rate people, when you set up a debate simply to instigate people... YOU MIGHT BE A GRIEFER!

Bakuzelas Khan makes (made?) skins and clothing and I think won an award at Hamlet's fashion show a while back. He was also one of the first wave of Live Helpers, along with myself, and I never saw him be anything but helpful on the LH IM sessions when I was on shift with him.

When W-Hat made their (?first?) HQ in Baku, I owned land across the road from them. Bakuzelas and Masa were pretty much co-leaders of the group, from what I could tell. I was AFK-pushed off my land a few times, but they joked around about which one of them did it, and which one of them told the other to stop, so I'm not going to lay any blame there.

My neighbor and I were pretty much in agreement that we didn't care for the types of build that were appearing on their property, but then Bakuzelas bought a prefab from my neighbor and she told me how nice he was during the transaction.

That's all I have to report

I'm a W-Hat member and I'm not ashamed to admit it. W-Hat has some genuinely cool and helpful people. There are several W-Hat members who are involved with Live Help.

I don't know if my "contributions" count - but I am an avid roleplayer. I do my best to maintain character and perhaps by doing that encourage other people to roleplay.

I've got lofty goals of starting up a Changeling: the Dreaming game, or perhaps Vampire: the Masquerade instead since C:tD players are harder to find. Some day I will, once I figure out how to handle dice, combat and all of the other things that invariably happen.

you know, all you W Hat apologists are just wanna-be griefers

there is no way griefers could any anything for OUR community

don't make excuses for these sub human killers and criminals. they are pure evil (just like in time bandits) and if u communicate with them, step on thier land, or even touch them, you will be immediatly destroyed by the force of vile destruction in every cell of their exsistance

and if you try to tell me otherwise, the people who were promissed this was "OUR WORLD, OUR IMAGINATION" (like me, not some griefers, but my world) will get our torches and pitchforks and burn you at the stake!(holder)

pffft

I heard that one of the W Hat is hiding Osama Bin Laden and part of the requirements of W Hat is stealing newborn babies from the hospital and delivering them to W Hat on the end of a pitchfork where their flesh and soul can be feasted on by the angry mob of griefers

this is all true, they are murdering raping looting bloodthirsty credit card stealing dog kicking communist punks!

it is absurd that anyone who ever spoke to a W Hat could be anything but a griefer!

its MY WORLD, MY IMAGINATION!

Not yours, you griefers!

Thank you

You're right, we don't all agree with each other all the time. As with any large group, we have a diverse array of personality types, all at different places in their lives.

If W-Hat didn't have anything but assholes and fuckups, I would not have stayed in the group. The truth is, W-Hat has some mebers who are genuinely awesome human beings. Teddy is great, Bakuzelas is the biggest sweetheart you will ever meet (truly - he bends over backwards to be accomodating to everyone), and there are others who are just great to hang out with as well. I won't name them here because they haven't already been named and I don't know if they would want to be.

I see Huns cleverly avoided the topics of babies, pitchforks and Osama Bin Laden...

Well Played...

what

I want the guys behind remixing "all your base" to do a 5-minute flash animutation to this quote.

http://rmitz.org/AYB3.swf

damn, made a boo boo

its my second language slipping in

i speak fluent gibberish

EDIT: btw, any =do*

;P

Unlike most of you, MMOs aren't my replacement life filling out some void. Believe it or not, there are people outside your basement that play online games in moderation and without turning into touchy douchebags. Or in easy understandable terms for you, I'm seeing the sun every day, do things like get my bike and go on tours on my spare time, instead of formfitting my ass into an office chair.

You know, I might spray less vitriol if the SL culture wouldn't be about deviant virtual sex. It's so fucking hilarious, that sexual deviants are making such a hissy fit all the time over less offensive but nonsexual stuff, that it's getting sad and annoying.

*shrugs. Not to put too fine a point on it, but altruism is a fiction in a place where everything is virtual, there is no real cost or benefit to any action, and survival is not an issue. (If this strikes anyone as a strange thing to say, think harder.) In Second Life, "altruism" is largely social self-interest, and is exactly the kind of "community conceit" - one of many - that needs to be exposed and spoofed.

And that's a tangible contribution - the sort that W-Hat might do, and sometimes skirts the edges of - if they were any good at that kind of thing.



Fair enough.



Which was my argument exactly. Shock value is cheap and ultimately boring. Besides - the virtual character of SL is significant here, too. In real life, statements made through shock are always up close, personal, and hard to avoid. Here, you log out. The only way an outfit like W-Hat can make meaningful statements is to engage you with an "argument-in-art" that you can't refuse to argue with - because it follows you into the real world.

While I'd argue that in real life, "altruism" is generally social self-interest in a party dress, saying it's without cost is kind of silly. As was said of Linux, "it's only free if your time is worth nothing."

Simply awesome.

Why do the deviants bother you so much? Can't stand some ordinary creativity? On a Mature sim? On the Adult grid?

Oh, I don't mind BDSM or sex. I may even ignore that some want to sodomize a couple of UV mapped polygons, because hell, you could classify it under unusual porn (though it's not exactly my kind of porn). But when the same people make virtual sex their main purpose in life, as it seems to be a lot the case in this game, then I start getting a little irritated. And when the same folks involve double standards, as in these A++++ WOULD V-RAPE AGAIN deviants getting so upset about our shens that they're bordering into depressions, then I figure it's normal that I might get a bit ballistic, when I'm trying to enjoy a game.

Ignoring that rez ball, that was supposed to break at gen4 with the generation counter in SL, anyway, don't you think it's a little odd that e.g. goreans are A-OK, while some scripted WTC or a suicide crime scene leads to major troubles? Especially if former sprouts all over the SL continent while we contain our crap in one sim? Gee, and some people wonder why a couple of members of our metagroup get upset once a while.

I mean, what kind of world is it where we can't have pony girl races and exploding twin tower leapers I mean really.

I have to disagree with that having seen examples of real cost to people helping others in money terms and otherwise. I can't back that statement up with details, sadly, as it would be disclosure.

Some might label a suicide crime scene as deviant and feel that it's normal for them to get a little ballistic when they are trying to enjoy a "game".



Agreed, as far as builds go, but I won't ignore the rez ball or other "harmless" pranks perpetrated on people who want no part of this type of fun.

I am simply pointing out that you are slinging upon another SL culture the type of mis-informed, reactive vitriol that you are trying to defend yourself against. It hardly seems productive to your cause.

Excellent. Respond to unfair generalizations with unfair generalizations. Makes perfect sense to me.

As for the original post, I second the nomination of Huns Valen as an exceptional person that SL is lucky to have in our midst.

I disagree with your notion of "community conceit", but it's a side topic and I dont really care enough about it to debate it right now.

The thing I really want to say is it sounds more and more like I might want to join W-Hat!
(except they wouldn't have me)

Though I'm really am finding it quite hard to get it straight in my mind that someone like Hun (who has garnered my respect quite a few times) and yourself (who I respect and also agree with a lot of the time) are associated with, or agree in any way with those people that love all that SA crap.

Maybe I'm old fashioned (in fact I know I am ), but if, like the SA group, someone thinks a picture of an open sore or a squashed baby is "funny" IMO they are just sick. And by that I dont mean "humoursly sick" I mean, "you are a danger and should be locked up sick." To take such absolute glee in such absolutely depraved imagery is an indication of a deranged mind to me.

I am anti-censorship to a much larger degree than most people I have met or talked to and would certainly never want such imagery, or avenues to it banned, but allowing that it should be seen, is a different thing from enthusiastic promotion or indeed, the sort of rapturous participation you often see on the SA website.

That kind of "evil" (for lack of a better term), is sociopathic and contra-survival. If you can't find sympathy in your heart for the aforementioned dead baby, or concern for the horror the person with the sores is suffering through, you are not really a human in the sense of belonging to the human tribe.

*SLAP

You need to get a hold of yourself, man. You're confusing real life with virtual fantasy, and conflating intent with action. And that's a step down a road you do not want to take.

And I say that to you out of a deep and abiding sense of altruism....

sigh....

In a virtual world, it's a choice based on luxury, not on necessity or survival - and therefore qualifies as "play altruism". In these forums, people often speak without really considering the meaning or definition of the concepts they use.

Not necessarily you - just a general comment.

Actually W-hat does literally mean "ass-hat"

When you use the more rounded version of a "w" instead of the pointed font this forum uses, it looks like the outline of an ass if you were to look at a seated person from the back.

One of the W-hat members explained that to me a while back.

But I think W-hat kind of unfairly gets a bad name from a few members, granted that they have a LOT more of these types of people gravitate towards them than other groups have. Ultimately W-hat has it's positives and negatives. They have a creative and non-serious spirit about them that's fun if you can drop your inhibitions a bit. But at the same time, much of their humour is immature and sometimes intended to be offensively funny (as in their WTC jokes and such). Sometimes that can be taken too far by some members: during a candle light vigil on the same day of the London train bombing in world, a few W-hat members were there dancing and playing sounds, and even one of them rezzed a fire and put a prim copy of a train that was free to copy there into it.

But from what I heard from W-hat members (whether or not this can be taken at face value I don't know), these people were admonished or kicked from the group for their actions.

Where to begin....



Ack, don't do that! It sounds too much like avoidance of a subject that blows a hole in your point of view. "Community conceits" are exactly what W-Hat - in their clumsy way - is all about. It's a core variable in considering the topic of worth to the community. I can't debate you if you won't let me, capische?



Hmmm. I may be guilty of the same sort of avoidance. I can't debate these kinds of tactics because I find them shallow, common as in it's-all-been-done-before-yawn, and needlessly unpleasant. Nonetheless, I recognize that these are reactions - however coarse - to the prevailing community ethic. More importantly, they are often the only organized assault on that ethic here in Second Life. So I am just a little more tolerant of the garbage - in part because I regard dead babies and buses flying throught the WTC as slightly more creative and expressive than the inevitable pictures of a "pile of streaming crap" that even the "commercial literati" around here respond with.

So there, ya see? I did overcome the avoidance response to discuss their tactics.

there is a distinct chance he might have been messing with you

I guess I was mentioned in the original post that this thread isn't for me but I guess I might as well chime in. I make houses, and custom avatars, and other crap as the thoughts strike me, and I have a vendor or two set up, but honestly I'm just as happy to give my stuff away free if someone expresses interest. I don't charge enough to make much of a difference, and I don't buy enough things to really need the internet dollars, so why bother with it.

I can't speak for everyone, but the common thread I see in most of the members of w-hat is that we like messing with people in a harmless fashion. Something I do from time to time that I consider 'harmless fun' and I guess from certain perspectives can be called 'griefing' is I pick a letter of the alphabet, punch it into Find Person, and send 20 random people a notecard with a recipe for a chocolate souffle on it (and it's a delicious recipe). Why do I do it? Because I figure the expression on the face of Joe Random internet person when a notecard pops up on their screen with a recipe is probably pretty funny, and I dig imagining the reactions. Hell, sometimes people thank me for it, and several people gave me positive rates for it. I have no idea why, but I hope they pass it on to others. Could it be construed as griefing? Sure, I guess if someone was super focussed on something, and a notecard with a dumb recipe on it popped up in the middle of a complex build or a Noun: The Adverb session, it'd be bloody annoying - but I like to think most people would see it for what it was, a little bit of random comedy. I especially take great joy in tweaking the noses of people who take themselves too seriously - there's a picture floating around the internet of a guy at a women's rights protest holding up a sign that says 'IRON MY SHIRT' - I think it's hilarious. Do I think oppression of women is OK? Not at all. Do I think the signholder was oppressing women? Not in the least. What would be the response I would hope for if I were doing such an act? That whoever was viewing the scene would find the juxtaposition comical, and maybe some of the people waving the protest signs would find a little comic relief there. Am I not taking women's rights seriously enough? That's arguable, but I try not to take ANYTHING too seriously, there just isn't time.

Does it sometimes turn into something that is pretty damned far indeed from 'harmless'? Sure. Some of it could be explained by pure honest mistake - for instance, I've lost count of the number of times I've crashed whatever sim I was building in by having a dumbass attack in a script. The DO NOT PUSH button is a good example of this; I am pretty sure Masa would fly to LA and kill me by their own hand if I ever rez that again, anywhere. Some of it can be explained by misunderstanding, like way way way back in the day of the Mime Incident - me and a few of the guys went to several locations, dressed as mimes, walking around like protesters - with blank signs. (Because mimes don't talk, see.) Some people got the joke, some were confused, a couple folks assumed we were attacking someone, you get the drift. Some of it, unfortunately, is explainable by just plain bloodymindedness - some people, regardless of whether or not they are in w-hat or SADC or the Campfire Girls, are just jerks. Do you see more jerks from w-hat or SADC or the Campfire Girls than you do from whatever other group? Maybe, but there are a LOT of w-hats and SADC people, I don't have numbers in front of me, but I believe that w-hat is significantly larger than many other groups. So if 5% of a given sample of people are jerks, you're going to see more jerks out of a sample size of over 400 than you are from a sample size of 20 or so.

It could also be explained by being anywhere within the triangle of extremes I've delineated. Like I said, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but if you were to really sit and get to know any given person and why they do whatever it is they do, you'd find your initial assumptions were rarely correct. Doubly so with w-hatters, because we are an odd bunch indeed.

Which is one behemoth of a digression.

Anyway. W-HAT EXPLAINED HOLY SHIT

See, back in the day, a popular (but annoying) response to a poorly-worded, bizarre, or just plain screwy post on the SA forums was a simple 'what'. Eventually people decided to dress it up a little, and realized that the word 'what' could be deconstructed to 'w' and 'hat', so a custom emoticon was made that was the letter W in front of a picture of a hat, Masa posted the image a page or so back. When the group was being formed (I wasn't around for this, but read the thread about it in the Archives), they were looking for a name, and that one just popped up with no real hidden significance.

That's it. I'd post links to the old archived thread but you'd need an SA forums account and also Archives access to see it, which I am willing to bet most people reading these forums don't have.

what