Attn: Robin Linden
|
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
|
11-28-2005 14:09
From: Sensual Casanova My only response is, buy the business. not the person. But LL doesn't provide a mechanism for buying all the assets of a business except by buying the account. llMergeAccount(key recipient) All assets of the account that executes this are handed over to the recipient account. That includes all land, all in-world objects (in the same sim?), and all inventory. The caller will recieve a new UUID, and the old one will be permanently retired and removed from group membership.
|
Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
|
11-28-2005 14:11
From: Annah Zamboni Thats my point. Anshe is buying the business but LL doesnt have an easy technical solution to do this. So Anshe asked to buy the account and it was approved. Unless someone can show me that Anshe is going around pretending to be this other 'person' (ie roleplaying as them) and trying to deceive people, then Anshe shouldnt even be a concern. However the general topic of account transfers is a good topic, but Im just saying Im not concerned by this one transaction. Deceit is implicent in a transaction of this sort. Let's say Person A does not wish to economically help Person B through making a purchase of land, clothing, anything. If Person B buys account C, Person A may unwittingly do just that, as there has been no disclosure of the transer of the account. This leaves Person A with the option of not purchasing anything in SL, or to simply hope for the best. I wouldn't, in RL, purchase something from a store that is owned by a Hate Speech group. If the group can anonomously owe another business, I may do so without realizing it. This is why there are DBA (Doing Buisness As) requirements in both the establishment and transfer of businesses. There is no DBA statement in this case.
_____________________
From: Torley Linden We can't be clear enough, ever, in our communication. 
|
Annah Zamboni
Banannah Annah
Join date: 2 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,022
|
11-28-2005 14:34
From: Sensual Casanova The problem isnt this one transaction. the problem is account sales. It is not about Anshe, I dont know how many times that has been said in this thread. And as for your resturaunt comment, here in Colorado that is called discrimination and unless they have an official VIP group, they can be sued, it doesnt matter how rich or poor you are. Ok so my restuarant example isnt good in Colorado. But the point is the same: IRL money talks. And also in this case Anshe didnt break the rules/law. As far as it not being about Anshe, the thread here starts out by linking to another thread FULL of Anshe related discussions. Im sorry if I missed the focus. 
|
Annah Zamboni
Banannah Annah
Join date: 2 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,022
|
11-28-2005 14:37
From: Taco Rubio Deceit is implicent in a transaction of this sort. *snipped for short replys sake* I wouldn't, in RL, purchase something from a store that is owned by a Hate Speech group. You potentially do business everyday in SL with people you dont agree with but dont even know it. There are tons of ways to get something you want in SL. Whether its creating an alt or getting a friend to buy something for you, you never know who you are dealing with. If you are that concerned, then the anonimity (spelling?) of the internet isnt the place to do business.
|
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
|
11-28-2005 14:45
I'm dead against account transfers. The avatar is not just a business, its not a logo, its the SL identity of that rl person using it. If nothing else, it's a bit creepy.
If transfers are to be allowed, I think that it should be flagged for all to see. If I have been dealing with someone, they rush off and sell account for some reason, I want to know if the next time I IM them it's a different person.
|
Annah Zamboni
Banannah Annah
Join date: 2 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,022
|
11-28-2005 14:56
From: Hiro Queso I'm dead against account transfers. The avatar is not just a business, its not a logo, its the SL identity of that rl person using it. If nothing else, it's a bit creepy. I agree to some extent but I would also like to point out that sometimes the avatar name IS also closely tied to the products. Whats the first thing you see when you edit an object? Creator Name. So if you are buying a product line and that product lines name is closely associated with an avatar name, it can be important to keep that relationship. From: Hiro Queso If transfers are to be allowed, I think that it should be flagged for all to see. If I have been dealing with someone, they rush off and sell account for some reason, I want to know if the next time I IM them it's a different person. Im all for that. The more tools/information in our hands the better. Im not too worried because I get the feeling this isnt a thing LL wants to get into the business of doing on a daily or even rare occassion until more tools are built into the game/servers to do this smoothy. And by that I mean selling of assets/business, not account transfers. Which is why I dont think its a rampant thing at LL.
|
Robin Linden
Linden Lifer
Join date: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 1,224
|
11-28-2005 15:50
When running a busines, as many in Second Life do, sometimes it makes sense to buy or sell assets. In RL this type of sale is complicated, but doable. In Second Life, it's just plain complicated, especially when the business is all tied up in the identity of an avatar.
We discourage account transfers because of some of the reasons you mention -- you want to know that the person behind the avatar today is the same person who was behind it last week. It's creepy when you don't know if something so fundamental as identity has changed.
Nevertheless, until we come up with a way to transfer inventory, an account transfer is the only real 'exit strategy' for someone who wants to liquidate a business in SL. Since a full inventory transfer isn't currently available however, we have to evaluate this sort of request individually, as described in the terms of service. In order to address the identity issue, if we do approve a transfer of this sort it will be with the caveat that the account name needs to change, and with an associated fee.
|
blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
|
11-28-2005 16:10
From: someone It's creepy when you don't know if something so fundamental as identity has changed.
So are multiple avatars using the same ID creepy, then? The Nine Souls of Wilde Cunningham" (One avatar, many souls)I think assuming things about the person you are talking to online is creepy.I've been doing virtual interaction since the early 90s. The first thing you learn is not to assume. And this is good. Because you start to treat everyone equally and with the same respect. You find you say things that you believe rather than what people want to hear - because you don't know who it is you're talking to and have no idea what they want to hear. However, even though I find the remarks above poorly chosen, I have to agree, someway of flagging an account as a multiple avatar account might be a good idea. How about a special last name that we could pick for accounts that we might sell/share?
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
|
SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
|
11-28-2005 17:42
From: Robin Linden In order to address the identity issue, if we do approve a transfer of this sort it will be with the caveat that the account name needs to change, and with an associated fee. Robin, I don't understand what your mean by "the account name needs to change". As an example, does that mean that if someone was silly enough to purchase my account, would they be supposed to change the name SuezanneC Baskervile to something else? Would they still have the same key? Would new objects they create show SuezanneC Baskerville as the creator? If changing SuezanneC Baskerville to a different name is what should occur would this be enforced by Linden or left to the new owner of the account to do, and thus perhaps not take place? We have reports of account names being changed by LR without the knowledge or consent of the user due to the use of an unacceptable name, if this is possible, would this be done in the case of an account transfer, and if not, why not? Could we be informed of such changes, such as telling us that the SuezanneC Baskerville account was purchased by the person known as avatar JohnDoe Avatar, or just that the SuezanneC Baskerville acount was sold and is no longer being operated by the same person? Are there any special provisions for shielding the old owner's credit card informtion and address and such from the new owner? Section 2.4 of the TOS states " You are not allowed to ever disclose your password to another person." This is a flat unequivocable statement with no escape clauses in it, Does the account transfer process repect this provision of the TOS or does that sentence in the TOS need to have an exception clause like "except in the case of an account transfer authorized in writing by Linden Research"? Does or could LR act as an intemediate stage between old and new user?
_____________________
-
So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
I can be found on the web by searching for "SuezanneC Baskerville", or go to
http://www.google.com/profiles/suezanne
-
http://lindenlab.tribe.net/ created on 11/19/03.
Members: Ben, Catherine, Colin, Cory, Dan, Doug, Jim, Philip, Phoenix, Richard, Robin, and Ryan
-
|
Lynn Lippmann
Toe Jammer
Join date: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 793
|
11-28-2005 17:50
From: Robin Linden When running a busines, as many in Second Life do, sometimes it makes sense to buy or sell assets. In RL this type of sale is complicated, but doable. In Second Life, it's just plain complicated, especially when the business is all tied up in the identity of an avatar.
We discourage account transfers because of some of the reasons you mention -- you want to know that the person behind the avatar today is the same person who was behind it last week. It's creepy when you don't know if something so fundamental as identity has changed.
Nevertheless, until we come up with a way to transfer inventory, an account transfer is the only real 'exit strategy' for someone who wants to liquidate a business in SL. Since a full inventory transfer isn't currently available however, we have to evaluate this sort of request individually, as described in the terms of service. In order to address the identity issue, if we do approve a transfer of this sort it will be with the caveat that the account name needs to change, and with an associated fee. Thank you for the reply, Robin. You pretty much outline when/where you would allow an account to be transferred and sold to another player. There are many instances listed wherein an account transfer should be feasible and justified. The caveat that the sold account's name change will be helpful. It will help identify accounts that have been sold. We don't necessarily need to know to whom they've been sold, but the identifier that it has been sold (name change) will be helpful. This wil also allow honest individuals to pursue an active ad campaign of "now selling X's items..." Upfront honesty goes a long way even in virtual businesses. Many of us are not against "selling off and getting off the island" -- we all understand why a person would want to sell and leave SL. What worried many of us was the (paraphrased) common existance already of sold accounts that have content that continues to be sold. These accounts have been sold against the TOS to other members of the community, with no TOS violation or communication to LL about the sale. Seeing if LL will enforce the TOS conditions will further prohibit such off-hand selling and behind-the-scenes selling of them. Hopefully, it will also stop the active solicitation of purchasing accounts. It's one thing to have a TOS statement such as what's listed -- it's entirely another matter to see the TOS being enforced. It makes no sense to have prohibited account sales in the TOS, then simply permit it to happen over and over. LL has the limitation of alts per credit card and the TOS listing of no-sales-of-accounts to back up it's policy. It might be interesting to conduct an in-house investigation of how many accounts are now on different credit cards. Hopefully, you have this information processed and in a database for comparison.
_____________________
They give us new smilies  but what about the TOES? Toe the line Linden's! Toes for the Toeless!
|
Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
|
11-28-2005 18:28
How much is the fee Robin?
|
Newfie Pendragon
Crusty and proud of it
Join date: 19 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,025
|
11-29-2005 06:25
BEGIN TRANSACTION SELL_ACCT
UPDATE ASSET_INFO SET Creator_Key = @NewKey WHERE Creator_Key = @ExistingKey
COMMIT TRANSACTION
Here ya go. That's gotta be worth at least one pony in effort. - Newfie
|