What recourse do I have?
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Katt Kongo
M2 Publisher
Join date: 9 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,020
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11-05-2005 15:42
From: Torley Torgeson I have a good feeling this is the part where the Metaverse Messenger sets up a Consumer's Advocate Watchdog section. Katt, don't hold back now! I have thought about doing this, but I hesitate to use the paper in this way. Emotions can really get in the way of good judgement, and I would hate to cast aspersions on someone unless I was 100% sure they deserved it. Also, if someone came to me with a tale of a bad product or poor customer service, it could be a case of a personal vendetta.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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11-05-2005 15:47
From: Katt Kongo I have thought about doing this, but I hesitate to use the paper in this way. Emotions can really get in the way of good judgement, and I would hate to cast aspersions on someone unless I was 100% sure they deserved it. Also, if someone came to me with a tale of a bad product or poor customer service, it could be a case of a personal vendetta. That's really good to hear Katt  That kind of stuff I do feel a little uneasy about. Some people do deserve it, and as you said, it's being 100% sure.
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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11-05-2005 15:49
Wah, what a horrible experience! No wonder my architecture business took off. I cannot believe anyone would treat a customer so badly. I have sold a few homes to people who were very new to SL, and wanted some assistance - honestly, it takes less than ten minutes to set them up. I don't care much for making my homes 'modify' and 'copy', but I do. It's the right thing to do until SL is functioning flawlessly. - Desmond Shang
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 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon!
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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11-05-2005 15:50
I agree with what Hiro said. 
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-05-2005 16:21
Well, it's hard to believe people would treat their customers so shoddily, especially when it is a matter of just providing them a fresh copy. To pay a whole lot to end up with nothing - that's a shame. I doubt people like this will be in business very long, really. My houses are mostly mod/copy, and come with any help you might need. coco
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billy Madison
www.SLAuctions.com
Join date: 6 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,175
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11-05-2005 16:50
From: Katt Kongo It wouldn't be taking a hit. It would be offering good customer service. If a maker can't do that, he or she is in the wrong business. And as far as what I fouled up, I can fix textures. But I can't fix the gradual misalignments in the wall that I did not cause. In the first post you made you didnt say anything about the walls being misaligned you said that the textures were messed up and the floor being screwed. If i was the prefab builder and you bought the house and then messed it up i would have given you another but, i can understand if people dont do that no matter what perms they have on it.. its just principle, you cant expect someone that makes prefabs spend extra time doing customer service on an issue that really isnt their fault, they made a product you saw it liked it and bought it, when you got it to your plot you messed it up. You are asking them to fix YOUR mistake not THEIRS. If misalignment is an issue why did you not just ask for a refund from the start? why did you attempt to retexture? You wouldnt have started retexturing unless you were happy with the structure to begin with right? Better yet why did you buy it from the start?
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Katt Kongo
M2 Publisher
Join date: 9 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,020
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11-05-2005 16:59
I bought it because I liked the style of the house. I wasn't happy with the texture, but the notecard on the house said that the textures could be replaced. So we did. And we messed up the textures, which we can fix. But we couldn't replace the original textures on the outside of the house because they were not included with the purchase of the house. The house is also misaligned, and we did nothing to cause that. I'm not a builder, and have never heard of building by eye instead of math until Lordfly explained it to me tonight. The house looked great when I bought it, but I didn't know to look at the seams of the house. If I ever buy a prefab again, I'll be sure to have an expert with me. I know that $3,500 doesn't equal to much in USD, but within SL, it's a good amount of money. For that amount, I would expect better service.
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Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
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11-05-2005 17:04
I think you're being a little harsh Billy. We all do different stuff in SL, and none of us are clued up on everything.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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11-05-2005 17:15
From: billy Madison You are asking them to fix YOUR mistake not THEIRS. If misalignment is an issue why did you not just ask for a refund from the start? why did you attempt to retexture? You wouldnt have started retexturing unless you were happy with the structure to begin with right? Better yet why did you buy it from the start? I hope you don't sell anything.  Something as special and personal as a home should be expected to be customized. For something as expensive as this home was, the customer deserves attention. I'd never leave a customer with something unusable. How embarassing for the home builder! I want my product to speak for me and to act as an advertisement and testimonial. If that means spending an extra ten minutes helping out or issuing a replacement, so be it. edit: I also really feel bad for Katt. Sounds like you got hosed, Katt.  Never buy anything over L$500 without a solid recommendation from a trusted friend, that's what I say.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
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11-05-2005 18:26
one nice thing about this story is that I read it and IMed katt to come help, or at least make her a new floor (LOL!) but LF was already there helping out. Go SL community!
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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11-05-2005 18:27
Aww yeah. Lordfly in the hizzouse.
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
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Lisse Livingston
Mentor/Instructor/Greeter
Join date: 16 May 2004
Posts: 1,130
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11-05-2005 19:20
From: Lordfly Digeridoo Holy crap. $L3500 for a prefab? Am I undercharging AGAIN?  Sheesh. You took the words right out of my mouth, LF. But it bears repeating anyway. Holy crap. $L3500 for a prefab?That's what I'm charging for a custom build I'm doing right now (or would be doing, if I could upload any textures at all without crashing each and every attempt grumble grumble...) Since I got back into the architecture business, I've started selling everything Copy/Mod/NoTransfer simply because it really cuts down on customer service calls. And as has already been pointed out, raw materials cost nothing at all so sending out an extra copy of an item to someone who has already bought one is a wonderful way to keep a happy customer - maybe even fly over, place it for them, tweak the textures they needed tweaking and sell-as-original once they're happy? If nothing else, it's a good way to make new friends and see new places! 
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Land Developer, Builder and Real Estate Agent Come to my events! Sundays at 10:00 am: Texturing ContestTuesdays at 5:00 pm: Land 101 and at 7:00 pm: TriviaThursdays at 7:00 pm: Land 101Fridays at 7:00 pm: Primtionary(Other events occasionally scheduled) Read my LiveJournal! Visit my Livingston Properties web site for your Real Estate and Building needs!
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Lisse Livingston
Mentor/Instructor/Greeter
Join date: 16 May 2004
Posts: 1,130
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11-05-2005 19:23
From: Lordfly Digeridoo That was my intitial suspicion, but the prims themselves are done in what is pretty obviously a "by eye" approach. IE, The dimensions for a wall would be 7.423, .363, 5.064.
If you're building by the numbers, you tend to round off the dimensions to make it easier to align. I totally agree, LF - with the one exception that very, very occasionally I will take a house I built by the numbers, and stretch/shrink it as a whole in order to fit it to a specific location. That might account for what you're seeing. Or not. 
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Land Developer, Builder and Real Estate Agent Come to my events! Sundays at 10:00 am: Texturing ContestTuesdays at 5:00 pm: Land 101 and at 7:00 pm: TriviaThursdays at 7:00 pm: Land 101Fridays at 7:00 pm: Primtionary(Other events occasionally scheduled) Read my LiveJournal! Visit my Livingston Properties web site for your Real Estate and Building needs!
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
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11-05-2005 19:49
could you grant "modify your objects" rights to someone other than the creator who might be willing to help?
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.
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Katt Kongo
M2 Publisher
Join date: 9 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,020
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11-05-2005 21:50
From: SuezanneC Baskerville could you grant "modify your objects" rights to someone other than the creator who might be willing to help? Yes, I would.
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Darkness Anubis
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,628
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11-06-2005 01:26
From: Lordfly Digeridoo disclaimer: I'm the prefab builder's competition
Well, I took a look at the house after replying in this thread...
To be honest, texture replacement is the least of Katt's worries.
The home's prims are misaligned, built by eye rather than by numbers... the textures themselves are horribly misaligned, the script to reorient the house simply doesn't work...
It's a showpiece of shoddy workmanship from start to finish, and definitely isn't worth the princely sum being charged for it. I've built custom homes for less.
On TOP of that, the pieces are no-copy, which is practically blasphemy in my opinion; if a customer deletes a window, and has a duplicate window next to it, you LET THEM COPY IT SO THEY CAN FIX IT THEMSELVES. Der n der.
In short, the house is teh brokenz, and the original house should be set on fire in protest.
LF
edit: And the bouncy floor problem isn't the house's, it's the Sim's. Another shining example of 1.7. Wake me up when I can venture outside grignano.
LF I do build prefab houses at VERY cheap rates and no mine are not copyable. I do however replace homes that have gotten messed up through changes within reason (ie mess it up a ridiculous number of times and I might say enough is enough for a 200L home). I do not think it is blasphemy for a builder to put no copy on their homes if they support their product well on the backside.
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Natalie Oe
Huh?
Join date: 3 Oct 2005
Posts: 679
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Hi
11-06-2005 02:12
Firstly sorry to hear about you mis fortune katt Secondly anyone looking to buy a prefab house I would advise to check out Hillcrest homes, I brought a 2 unit prefab from them for 700L which included 11 different sorts of doors, I had a few questions and the owner answered the same day I msged him  The house was completely modifiable as I modified it, Knocked a wall out here and there added a pool and changed the colour completely inside and out lol Nat 
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Scorpio Galatea
Phoenix Builder
Join date: 9 May 2004
Posts: 40
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House Prices and Mod or Not to Mod!
11-06-2005 11:43
As a fairly 'new' builder in SL, I have been reading this thread and can sympathise totally with the original buyers predicament. There is no excuse for bad after-service whether the house is 500 or 5000. That aside, there have been comments about the cost of prefabs and the total 'shock' by one contributor at the price of prefabs in SL.
I can only say what my experience is. I will straightaway say some of my homes come under the 'shock horror' price bracket. My homes are mod/copy and no transfer and I have, and will, continue to supply the textures as 'No transfer' items to the buyers if they request them. On the price, I make no apologies. I work hard to make the homes that people have bought and have even told me I am far too cheap for what they feel they are buying. I am talking about people that have been in SL for some time and know their prices and the genral prefab market.
If people refuse to buy my homes at a price I feel reflects the effort that has gone into it then the market has spoken. This is not the case I am fortunate to say.
On the question of houses being modifiable, I will make one observation. A builder's home, when sold continues to be an advert for his work, good or bad. The creator's name is all over it. I have seen cases, and my homes included, where the buyer has made extensive modifications to the property, often badly done and used the same textures supplied. Anyone seeing the house could quite easly assume that this 'work' is by the original builder and could seriously damage the view by a potential buyer of that builder's work. This is the downside of giving mod rights. I will continue to take that risk.
I give after sales service at no charge if required. This is usually because they drop a texture on the floor or have not locked the house down and move a section or unlink the and move the house.
Despite this, I will continue to supply mod/copy prefabs at the prices I do now. In the early days I sold 'cheap' and was told I was too cheap. I raised prices and sales have not decreased, they have increased! When I joined SL, 18 months ago I also bought prefab homes and paid L2000 for homes that had tile textures on the floor that in real life would measure 10ft square!
The overall message I have received is 'quality and attention to detail' The price is secondary if the these attributes apply. I feel my homes have both and more importantly, my customers say they do.
I won't moan about builders who decide to sell homes at L200 or as I have seen, L35,000. They will sell them or them wont. Let the buyers decide.
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Sensual Casanova
Spoiled Brat
Join date: 28 Feb 2004
Posts: 4,807
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11-06-2005 12:08
From: Jonquille Noir If you decide to buy another house to replace that one, make sure you check the permissions on it. I don't buy any houses that aren't Modify and Copy. If you mess something up modifying it, you can delete the whole house and rez it again from Inventory. As for recourse with this builder, you really don't have any. If you can't come to an agreement with him, the only thing you can really is chalk it up to experience, never purchase from him again, and spread the word. I agree, I never buy any houses no copy no mod, thats just insane, people want different textures etc... and if you mess it up or want it how it was its ruined... I hope the creator resloves this waith you and gives you a new home or refunds your money, if not please let others know so we know not to buy from this person
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Richie Waves
Predictable
Join date: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,424
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11-06-2005 12:18
WOW! I gotta see this prefab if its 3500!! must be awesome!
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no u!
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Sierra Divine
CEO of URBAN FLAVA
Join date: 4 Dec 2004
Posts: 187
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11-06-2005 12:26
 sry 2 hear about that experience. unfortunately in this "game", (Second Life is not a game. It is a platform that is used to create content, socialize and network and allow residents to monetize their efforts by selling their content and/or services. ~David Linden) some people don't see the need to make sure a person is fully satisfied. i've had several pre-fab houses in my inventory, some highly satisfying and some that make me sit back and ask myself "wtf was I thinking?!?"; but there are ppl in SL that will b willing to help and sometimes even replace their products if it can't b fixed. not every1 is "bad" 
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-06-2005 12:35
From: Scorpio Galatea As a fairly 'new' builder in SL, I have been reading this thread and can sympathise totally with the original buyers predicament. There is no excuse for bad after-service whether the house is 500 or 5000. That aside, there have been comments about the cost of prefabs and the total 'shock' by one contributor at the price of prefabs in SL. I can only say what my experience is. I will straightaway say some of my homes come under the 'shock horror' price bracket. My homes are mod/copy and no transfer and I have, and will, continue to supply the textures as 'No transfer' items to the buyers if they request them. On the price, I make no apologies. I work hard to make the homes that people have bought and have even told me I am far too cheap for what they feel they are buying. I am talking about people that have been in SL for some time and know their prices and the genral prefab market. If people refuse to buy my homes at a price I feel reflects the effort that has gone into it then the market has spoken. This is not the case I am fortunate to say. On the question of houses being modifiable, I will make one observation. A builder's home, when sold continues to be an advert for his work, good or bad. The creator's name is all over it. I have seen cases, and my homes included, where the buyer has made extensive modifications to the property, often badly done and used the same textures supplied. Anyone seeing the house could quite easly assume that this 'work' is by the original builder and could seriously damage the view by a potential buyer of that builder's work. This is the downside of giving mod rights. I will continue to take that risk. I give after sales service at no charge if required. This is usually because they drop a texture on the floor or have not locked the house down and move a section or unlink the and move the house. Despite this, I will continue to supply mod/copy prefabs at the prices I do now. In the early days I sold 'cheap' and was told I was too cheap. I raised prices and sales have not decreased, they have increased! When I joined SL, 18 months ago I also bought prefab homes and paid L2000 for homes that had tile textures on the floor that in real life would measure 10ft square! The overall message I have received is 'quality and attention to detail' The price is secondary if the these attributes apply. I feel my homes have both and more importantly, my customers say they do. I won't moan about builders who decide to sell homes at L200 or as I have seen, L35,000. They will sell them or them wont. Let the buyers decide. I'm raising my prices. coco
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Torley Linden
Enlightenment!
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 16,530
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11-06-2005 12:53
There is one fundamental thing I keep in mind: It may not be easy to make a nice house. However, it is easy to be a nice person.
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Lucy Horton
Registered User
Join date: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 43
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Happy Bunny
11-06-2005 14:50
I've bought from this builder and am a contented consumer, feeling I have got value for money. If u don't like the price don't buy it. Speaking personally, I feel I've got something worthy of my investment in a plot. After sales service is vital - the FU approach with subsequent problems is useless to someone of my currently minimal skills. I make no apology - I'm new and learning. If u can't accept ur limitations, go ahead and build ur own - live in a groovy, trendy log cabin. Mind the splinters  . SL supply some nice free out of box models, go ahead, build one and be happy if it suits. Then compare with what u could have had and ask urself if u can see why there's a price difference. I'm new but had a need to settle - I accept that others don't. Ultimately we each pay what things are worth to us as individuals, so it's really a hard argument to be definitive on isn't it? From: Scorpio Galatea As a fairly 'new' builder in SL, I have been reading this thread and can sympathise totally with the original buyers predicament. There is no excuse for bad after-service whether the house is 500 or 5000. That aside, there have been comments about the cost of prefabs and the total 'shock' by one contributor at the price of prefabs in SL.
I can only say what my experience is. I will straightaway say some of my homes come under the 'shock horror' price bracket. My homes are mod/copy and no transfer and I have, and will, continue to supply the textures as 'No transfer' items to the buyers if they request them. On the price, I make no apologies. I work hard to make the homes that people have bought and have even told me I am far too cheap for what they feel they are buying. I am talking about people that have been in SL for some time and know their prices and the genral prefab market.
If people refuse to buy my homes at a price I feel reflects the effort that has gone into it then the market has spoken. This is not the case I am fortunate to say.
On the question of houses being modifiable, I will make one observation. A builder's home, when sold continues to be an advert for his work, good or bad. The creator's name is all over it. I have seen cases, and my homes included, where the buyer has made extensive modifications to the property, often badly done and used the same textures supplied. Anyone seeing the house could quite easly assume that this 'work' is by the original builder and could seriously damage the view by a potential buyer of that builder's work. This is the downside of giving mod rights. I will continue to take that risk.
I give after sales service at no charge if required. This is usually because they drop a texture on the floor or have not locked the house down and move a section or unlink the and move the house.
Despite this, I will continue to supply mod/copy prefabs at the prices I do now. In the early days I sold 'cheap' and was told I was too cheap. I raised prices and sales have not decreased, they have increased! When I joined SL, 18 months ago I also bought prefab homes and paid L2000 for homes that had tile textures on the floor that in real life would measure 10ft square!
The overall message I have received is 'quality and attention to detail' The price is secondary if the these attributes apply. I feel my homes have both and more importantly, my customers say they do.
I won't moan about builders who decide to sell homes at L200 or as I have seen, L35,000. They will sell them or them wont. Let the buyers decide.
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Louis Platini
Registered User
Join date: 16 May 2004
Posts: 13
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11-07-2005 04:09
From: Cocoanut Koala I'm raising my prices. coco don't raise your prices. Scorpio's work is perfect. Nobody can be as good as him 
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