Free Expression and Moderation Reform

HASTUR HASTUR HASTUR, I made you out of clay..

HASTUR HASTUR HASTUR with HAS...............(gasp).....(eeek)....(crunching noises)...(burp)

Out of curiosity, why are you even in this thread? You don't seem to be talking about free expression or moderation reform but are instead trying to come to terms with your feelings in public. Why don't you start a separate thread called "Healing After the Ban", where we can all come together and discuss how we feel. It's the perfect day for it. I'll post some things to it.

~Ulrika~

Yes, I'm glad the censoring is under way. After LL has seen how well the last few weeks have improved here, and how most posters are thrilled with the changes, I doubt they will return to a time people were allowed to freely claim so-and-so did this or that.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think your complaints would help you anyhow. Not many people reading forums care about people selling your freebies, there are ways to give out freebies without giving the right to copy, if it upsets you that much. I also doubt anyone is interested in your claims of some group "sinking" a sim you share unless they also share that sim. If I have an issue with someone personally I take it up with that person first, then I report them.

After reading every post in this thread I'm convinced even more than before that personal attacks, claims of wrong doing etc are not acceptable in a forum setting.


BTW, how do you provea group is "sinking" a sim? If they are within their boarders, within their prim limit, how can they sink a sim? If there is a way for them to do this, wouldn't it harm them as well, seeing they are using the sim too? And if they are doing this can you bring it to LL and request a change in the rules to keep it from happening?

I agree we should talk about that issue generically. Such as ways to fix the issue, or new rules to protect the sim. That would be appropriate. Naming names does nothing to fix the problem, it only opens the door for a flame fest between the one issuing the complaint and the one being condemned. Nothing is accomplished in my opinion.

Thank you for at least admitting your bias. Regardless of perceived stature, each of us are individuals whose work and reputation were been repeatedly criticized and impuned, often with baseless accusations and complete lies. The fact that you sat by and watched it - and even encouraged it with your unwavering support makes an about face on it a bit hard to swallow now.

You speak of lack of malice as being another reason you let it slide. In the end, if the result is someone being upset, angry, and unfairly attacked, just because you do not perceive your friend a certain way doesn't make the end result any less malicious.

To sort of get away from the shameless plug I posted earlier, I do have thoughts on this issue.



I think the first step is to stop marginalizing issues. As I discussed with a friend of mine yesterday, this is done in two major ways:



1) Marginalizing by the moderators. "This post has outlived its useful life and will be closed" or "Moved to Off-Topic."

While I generally agree with the "why" of several thread locks, I feel this is the first problem we have. If a thread is locked, there should be a stated, thought-out reason. Pathfinder generally offers a great response in this manner, and I feel this is the best way to go about it.

Also in this vein, certain threads deserve to be in their posted forums. To offer two examples, a while back I had "llPizza is now a valid function" moved to Off-Topic, where it quickly died. Similarly, Coco had a recent thread on a Linden bridge moved there.

Off-Topic is the kiss of death for many threads, and I believe the mods know this well. Just as I created my stated thread specifically for the "in-group" of a certain discussion forum, so did Coco.

I think the best litmus test for Off-Topic is if the mods asked themselves, instead of "is this appropriate for this forum," to ask "would this thread survive in Off-Topic?"

Off-Topic is not a garbage-collection forum.



2) Marginalizing by the SL community.

Be it residents, ideas, places, et al, many new ideas are marginalized by residents or flat-out ignored.

The best example of this is the red triangle of death. I feel complaints to a thread should not be taken as gospel, especially in bulk. They should be taken as cause to look at a particular thread, nothing more.

Another good example are blatant drama threads spun by residents. While some acts are certainly worthy of contempt, I despise seeing people put words in others' mouths or projecting their own problems onto another resident. I was the subject of one of these myself with my Prim Mirror, and I still use it as a good example of killing the messenger.

On moderator reform, this idea should be looked at holistically.


At any rate, I feel these problems should be worked on first. I find it shameful that we have a kind of "censorship - countercensorship" battle going on here, but such is the rub of a "free" system.

On a related note, it's interesting how this dovetails with other forums (hilarious sic) of censorship.

Swallow it or not Cristiano. I never stated I was perfect. It's more important to me that I be truthful to myself, and look at any mistakes I may have made full on, however hard that is. AND that I admit them out loud.

"Swallow it" implies I have some ulterior motive for sitting there and saying, "You're right, Nolan." What possible motive could that be? If you - and if Prok, who is also likely to - think I am now ingratiating myself or something, think again.

Do you think it is easy to have someone say something that all of a sudden slaps you in the face with insight? That makes you realize you have overlooked something vital that would have helped you understand people's feelings and the dynamics of all that was going on? That's not fun and it's not easy. I'm not giving you anything to swallow. I'm introspecting, thanks to Nolan saying something that hit home.

coco

/me hugs Coco

None of this is easy but I think we can all move on. I'm hoping the issues all get resolved soon. I'll step out of the thread too as I have nothing more to add.

The censoring has always been going on. As I've said in a previous post (since you said that you've read the whole thread), that hasn't changed. What has changed is that LL now links in world and forum banning. Understand?
Those are just examples of events that happened a long time ago. To see how one sinks a sim, just click on the link (look for the word "Blue" that has a line under it), I've posted several times. The example with wuvme I used happened over a year ago. It's an example. See, I prefixed the list with the phrase "here are a few examples".
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you might not be the best to judge how things are going now relative to the past given that you seem to have difficulty following and understanding my posts. I don't mean to be rude but you seem to be a little disconnected from the conversation.
I don't know what you're talking about.

~Ulrika~

Saying it is difficult to swallow does not imply an ulterior motive. When someone was as strident in your support, and told by many people, myself included, how hurtful and damaging it was - yet you still maintained that there was nothing wrong with it and no malice was involved. I'm glad you've had an epiphany on the matter - by saying it is a bit hard to swallow, I am stating my opinion. I have watched post after post where you talked about your being targetted and how it made you feel, and I have been very supportive of you. I didn't call you out as being an alt. Even when I have disagreed with you (and I have disagreed with you quite strongly), I have always been respectful of you.

Yet how much damage to someone else, and how many other people had to be hurt before you realized that the person you were giving a free pass to was doing something just as damaging and hurtful as the things you were outraged about having done to you? I am glad you recognize it, truly, it has just been a frustrating hypocrisy to have to watch (thus being difficult now to swallow).

You are messing up a perfectly good thread by feeding a troll. Y'all should take it outside.

~Ulrika~

PS - Ulrika, sorry for the slight hijack, but you pissed me off with the Quicktime thing

QuickTime is teh sexay!

~Ulrika~

No, you are teh sexay. Quicktime blows.

Because I am a playing and paying member of SL?

Because I have an intellectual and personal interest in moderation and the rules, particularly the one tying forum behavior to the ability to play the game?

Because I have been hugely involved in this whole thing, arrive at the game in time to find my friend from another game involved in a huge battle with a number of the successful regulars in this game?

I think really the first reason above should be all that is required for me to be in this thread - just like anyone else.

I went back and looked to see what made me speak up, and it was this, by Seth:

"Why is it necessary to surrender certain civil rights to benevolent gods in return for "freedom from denigration"? That's a plea of nolo contendere to charges that collectively and individually we have no discipline, tolerance, nor balance, and are helpless to fix our issues.

"Speak for yourselves, not me. I will give up none of my civil rights to participate in Second Life, and I will not say that I have nothing substantial to contribute to issues of order, control, and policy in an online community in which I participate."

I was inspired by that. In fact, I have in the past specifically made the same point he made in the second sentence of the first paragraph. Emboldened, you might say, by someone who seemed to express exactly what I was feeling.

I am not trying to come to terms with my feelings in public, any more than I am trying to come to terms with Prok's feelings in public, or Ulrika's feelings in public, or Reddish's feelings in public. I do that with my friends and my family.

I don't talk here through any sort of need to heal. I have my friendships in the game, some of them of very long and comforting duration, and I'm strong enough to deal with these forums, overall, though I've had some very low points.

I am talking about forum moderation, or the lack of it. I'm talking about the new rule about tying forum behavior to the ability to play the game, which is repressive and against the best interests of the game, its supposed ideals, and every player in it, imo.

I'm giving my opinion on whether or not we should name names. I'm talking about a forum that when it first brings up shunning is already out of control. God knows I get tired of talking about it already, and spend a fair amount of time musing about why I bother, and why it all means so much to me. It's just a dang game, for Pete's sake. Then again, I was that way about TSO, too.

That I have used myself as an example - well, what can I say. I AM an example. Just as you are. Just as Cristiano is. In fact you are the example you used in making this whole thread. You wouldn't say that means it is just about poor, pitiful you, would you? And the fact that you got a warning? Well, neither is it just all about poor, pitiful me, and the things that happened to me.

And just like the two of you, I have a right to post and comment on any thread I want to. I have every right to state my opinions in these forums, wherever I want to. Just as much of a right as any other person here.

It is true I feel this new rule to be more of a threat to me than, say, to more popular posters. But - I don't want Ulrika to get caught up in this rule any more than I want myself to. The only other choice I have is to not care what happens to Ulrika, and not to speak up about it. I do want people to follow the forum rules. I don't want them to lose their entire game if they don't.

I wish to not see individuals unduly punished, by losing their game, or punished by losing the forums without fair review and good moderation already present. I wish new players to be able to come on here unafraid, or old players who tell me they just aren't going to put themselves on the line, even for just a mild complaint. I am telling you, they just stuff it instead, rather than brave these forums.

Virtually everything I have said is about free expression and moderation reform. Using myself, using Prok, using you, using Reddish - those are illustrations.

I think from this discussion, I have concluded anyway, naming names in almost any instance is no good. (Except to say something nice about the person.) And I remain certain that tying forum behavior to the ability to play the game is wrong.

Now I'm really, really tired of hearing myself talk, so I know that makes others ready to puke from it, lol. I hope it has been worthwhile.

coco

Oh dear. Cristiano, I'm doing the best I can with it.

Ulrika, did you just call me a troll? I thought we were getting somewhere.

coco

Jeffrey, I didn't create my bridge thread for any in-group.

It was this ridiculous thing that appeared out of nowhere, and the residents weren't happy about it. And it wasn't resident-created, it was Linden created.

How could that possibily be off-topic, or for some in-group? I figured it had been moved to off-topic because of its fairy-tale style telling.

Off-topic is supposed to mean it doesn't have anything to do with the game.

coco

In context, you created it for the group of posters that frequents General. This is the purpose of my argument.

Otherwise, you would have posted it to another forum. QED.

My point is to define "the folks that frequent other forums" from "the people that frequent Off-Topic." This is one of the reasons a move is such a kiss of death.

Fair enough, I will grant you that you definitely are trying and I will shut up about it. I was just feeling a bit of frustration. Thanks at least for having an open mind - it is always nice to see someone consider things from other sides.

Well, after reading over your posts several times I think I have an excellent grasp of your wishes.

You want to make the forum a place of rumor and flame fests by allowing me and everyone else the right to claim you are a troll. Can I prove it? Maybe, by my reading of this thread it appears you have been trolling a bit. But it's my opinion, so according to your wishes I should be able to say it, and post an example. An example might be something such as your willingness to debase my opinion with statements such as "I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you might not be the best to judge how things are going now relative to the past given that you seem to have difficulty following and understanding my posts. I don't mean to be rude but you seem to be a little disconnected from the conversation." or when you ask me if I'm confused. If you can't understand me why are you responding. I think you understand my points well, and refuse to address the points I make, such as the point about using forums to beat those you dislike. You understand just fine, but it doesn't fit your wish to bring the forums down to the point people are rumor mongering and back biting. If we go back to your first post we can see what you really want.

Your point about punishing those who falsely accuse others was a point I questioned, who will be the judge, jury etc. Are you suggesting LL hire more people to create a court for the forums? See, these are things I have asked several times of you without a response.

You claim I don't understand, but that's because you ignore any questions that point out the sever flaws in your proposal. At this point I feel as if I've beat this dead horse long enough, if you can't answer the questions and choose to rather attack me personally by suggesting I just don't get it, then there is no reason to continue this debate. If you don't understand me, and you say I don't understand you, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This post is too long!

Please try and boil your thoughts down to a couple of paragraphs of 3 to 5 sentences each, otherwise folks just skip right over them. This is something that Prokofy could never learn and is the main reason I thought you were his alt.

Apologies for calling you a troll. I guess you're just trying to discuss your feelings in a thread that is as closely related to your topic of interest as possible. I guess I don't see a reason why your subtopic can't coexist with the main topic. Sorry.

~Ulrika~

Do what I did. Buy a G5 with a 21" HD Cinema Display and see what QuickTime does when integrated with a Unix-based operating system. It's the difference between pizza and caviar. Really.

~Ulrika~

welcome to the world of forum personalities.

Ah. Another broken spirit.

OK. Who's next?

~Ulrika~

At least you weren't called a troll, Kevn.

Ulrika reminds of a kid who hands out a lollipop to another kid, then when the other kid reaches for it, swipes it away.

Kid one says, "I was just kidding, I won't do it again, I promise come on now, let's be friends." Eventually kid two is persuaded to reach for the lollipop again, and again, kid one swipes it away.

Hilarious.

coco

No, the real hilarity is watching someone wallow in 'hurt feelings' and use it as a means by which to garner sympathy/attention/support.

Personally, I'm taking bets on how long and across how many threads it gets repeated before the acceptable amount of sympathy/attention/support is received... and whether or not threads will be closed before that happens, and then whether or not other threads will either be opened or hijacked to continue the effort.

There were a lot of people who had hurt feelings over the things that happened prior to the changes. Most of them heave a sigh of relief that the canker has been excised and they can heal without someone constantly trying to pick the wounds open.

Shame some folks can't be as sympathetic to others as they wish others would be to them. Of course, if it is about the sympathy/attention/support, mutual reconciliation isn't really the goal, is it?

Chances for discussion of the issue (if there even remains one) are rapidly being clouded by this push for sympathy/attention/support.

I agree with Ulrika. If someone wants to be cosseted and petted and just can't move on until it happens, they would be better served to start a thread for it rather than hijack anything relating to the moderation changes in search of it.

Personally, any ill effect I might have suffered were neatly circumvented by the realisation that the opinions of others can't hurt you unless you grant them meaning or power over you. That and about a month off doing things that involve sunlight and camping and tasting some RL.