Free Expression and Moderation Reform

How many forum bans do you think Prokofy was given?

Answer: One. Earlier, he was suspended from the forum; not banned from it. One time, I believe.

How many game bans do you think Prokofy was given?

Answer: None.

So far at least, you can't be banned more than once from the forums. And from now on, that will mean you're banned from the game, too.

There is a middle ground somewhere between little moderating and moderating with such a severe penalty.

I believe, too, Lindens, that there should be probably a bit more in the way of warnings. Otherwise (I may be disremembering this, but I can't look at it right now), a person only gets to goof up two or three times and they lose the game. Since most of the time, when a person goofs up, they didn't even realize they were goofing up at the time (like when I said, "Are you blind?" on the TSO forums). I think everybody deserves more chances than that.

coco

They can, Kevin. There is no need for this rule.

coco

I agree entirely with Anshe on this matter.

coco

Excellent.

Truth be told, in the SL IRC channel we're working on a way to get you banned next. The only thing that's slowing us down is we can't decide if we want the good-English Anshe banned or the bad-English Anshe banned. Once we decide, one of you will feel the might of the FIC too.

~Ulrika~

I want to preserve this one for posterity.

coco

errrr.....
I think you might not have noticed this, coco.
You're point about thread ownership goes straight over my head, as I had earlier made clear. I reject the entire concept.

Yes, sorry, Ellie, I replied before I finished reading the thread.

Oh, well. Just continue on then telling us when we should stop talking about what. That is your right as a poster. I don't care for it though.

coco

You are caught in an endless loop.

It's an inside joke coco. Anshe has a reputation of switching between good-English and bad-English mode in the forums depending on the situation. I'm just giving her some light-hearted ribbing.

As for the SL IRC channel, I've logged in once and realized instantly, that I was not entirely welcome. I've since learned that in the past before Prokofy's arrival I was a very talked about and disliked person therein. In some ways, I thank Prokofy for joining, as his arrival transformed me into a respected moderate.

~Ulrika~

Tut tut, Ulrika. I know I'm a bit young to be so bold, but someone has to say it...
That was naughty.
I thought we were all trying to be nicer, make the forums a nicer place to be.
Doesn't that apply to everyone ?

Ulrika,

Please come back, I get really bored listening to Oz Spade talk about porn. You would certainly make it livelier. I think you should start a peaceful coup of the IRC channel.

Well, get this part of my endless loop straight, Cristiano:

1. I don't think the concrete rules of the TOS should be thrown out in favor of "whole context" rules that would serve to quiet dissent.

2. I don't think the rules should apply to some people but not to others.

3. The rule that ties forum behavior to game behavior is overkill and unnecessary. In fact, there aren't enough steps that lead to banning as it is. There need to be more than a couple of warnings issued.

There - enjoy life in my endless loop, Cristiano. I'm probably not going to stop expressing those opinions, either, until the situation changes.

coco

and

4. I think naming names should be against TOS, except when a person is sincerely thankiing or praising someone, and even that is iffy, and outlawed in other forums.

Hence the endless loop, Coco, you aren't going to convince each other, you will just continue to go around in a circle. I share many of the same opinions you do about this, I just don't need to repeat them every other post. Seriously, these threads are becoming a bad case of deja vu, Coco.

Meh. That's vanilla ice cream compared to the brimstone and fire I can summon forth when I'm really irate. I have quite the range in a forum, from deep intellectual discourse all the way down to drunken bar fight.

~Ulrika~

I never mind being correctly corrected, coco. I used the word "ban" incorrectly if, as you say, LL only use it for a permanent exclusion. I guess therefore I meant "suspension" (a temporary one), and I apologise for the error.

Now - what was that damn topic Ulrika started.......

Edit: - Aaah - it was a vote - result seems to be:
"We should leave things exactly as they are."

We've passed 4000 views on this thread, so at this point the topic is pretty much whatever we want it to be. I'm actually impressed it's still as productive as it is.

~Ulrika~

Why should naming names be outlawed? It certainly didn't seem to give you pause for a moment when Prokofy was calling out people - but I forgot, it's because they were established people in the spotlight so they deserve it. At least in naming names, you have a chance to face and dispute your accuser, as opposed to the whisper campaign and notecard passing around that goes on in SL. In addition, with the fucked up disciplinary system in SL, you don't even know exactly what you did, much less who accused you of doing so. What should be outlawed is discipline without transparency.

As for outlawing it in other forums, free speech does still apply outside of LL's servers. I would shut down Snapzilla and cancel my SL account in a heartbeat before I would ever let a company dictate what I can or cannot say outside the confines of what they control.

You're all bark and no bite Ulrika (and I mean that in the best of ways). Even when you were public enemy number one and taking way more than your fair share of abuse you rarely resorted to flat out ad hominem attacks. It's one of the many reasons I admire you. You beat people over the head with logic often, but rarely with invective.

Note that the Lindens themselves also use the term ban to refer to suspension. Permanent banning is the end result - but any period where you are denied access is a banning - simply a temporary one. Odd semantics, I suppose, but they came up with it. The suspension/expulsion model of schools is more accurate.

YES! It is just as important as free expression and consistent moderation.

Hmm. I should add that to my upcoming thread queue.

~Ulrika~

You are raspberry sorbet, lady - the expensive Häagen-Dazs kind.

OK - let me see if I understand this, having read posts from Cristiano and others.

Ulrika can say what she wants - call people trolls, talk about their good or bad English, name people even though it's against the rules to name people -

and all that is OKAY. It is "good-natured." It's cute! Why, it's even the GOOD Ulrika.

But if I want to talk about issues, or how my experiences relate to them, that is BAD. In fact, Ulrika should be able to gather a group of like-minded players to help her moderate people on the supposedly much better grounds of deciding whether they want to let said players speak, rather than anything as flimsy as those rules she breaks.

I don't have much respect for this concept of forum order some of you have.

I also think that notions such as those above work against the average player and the average forum poster.

I would like to think we are all created equal, all allowed to speak, and all expected to follow the rules.

coco

Let's put it this way, Coco. Again, we're substituting personality for process or policy. I have no issue at all with Ulrika playing some sort of moderator's role. But not because she's Ulrika - a charming and intelligent SL personality. Because, instead, the ideas of moderation, mediation, and other functions by residents is an interesting and worthwhile idea. Who serves - Ulrika, etc. - comes way later. Or should.

This is small town stuff. I've lived in small towns, this is how it's done there. It's not that there's some sort of cabal of established players conspiring to take over the world; He Who is No Longer with Us misunderstood that dynamic. It's that SL is parochial, and power and consensus-building depends almost entirely on personal relationships and private networking. It does in the real world, too, but not so much - the dynamic is far more complex.

Many recent debates in these forums actually devolve into struggles between those who see this world in parochial terms, and those who see the need for a more balanced, cosmopolitan approach that better serves a diversifying population.

I just called Urlika respberry sorbet.You were a cheerleader/apologist for Prokofy's appalling behavior masked as some kind of scathing social commentary, and then have the audacity to comment on others respect for forum order?

As far as you commenting on issues, or even relating it to your personal experience, there is nothing wrong with that. However, there does reach a point where one needs to move on and come down off that cross, because someone else could use the wood.

Brilliant! I never thought about it that way before but now that you mention it, I see it's absolutely true.

Also, I am like raspberry sorbet. Evil raspberry sorbet.

~Ulrika~