These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE
slstats.com: You can't opt out. |
|
|
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
|
08-08-2006 20:58
My bet is you are being sarcastic but it works for me Guilty as charged *grin* I am just trying to point out that Mark did not make the problem. If anything he pointed out the problem. I wonder how many residents are collecting infomation without our knowledge? About Mark well I have not collected enough infomation on this. |
|
Sator Canetti
Frustrated Catgirl
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 130
|
08-08-2006 21:47
Gratz. You win the stupidist post of the month award, and the month isn't even half over. You have no clue about who complains about what reguarding RL activities - in fact, I know a lot of people on this thread DO complain about that. You assume that anything we don't want public is over guilt, which is just moronic. I could go on, but those were the two big ones. Thanks for letting me know you completely missed the tone of my post. I'll try being more direct. In second life, where just anyone can waltz around, swing the camera, and find someone having sex with a panda and a popcorn machine, people are worried about their names appearing on a site as an invasion of privacy. To be truthful, you lose more privacy visiting the website than you do appearing on it, as the owner now has your IP, which in some cases can be traced very near in location. The owner can also find out your screen resolution, your operating system, which browser you use, which langauge your browser is set to, etc. Oh, final point. All the points against slstats... they should apply to sluniverse's snapzilla, you should be able to opt out of that as well... as people can see who you were with and even what you were wearing. (I love a good debate, and I prefer educated opinions instead of mindless sheep baa-ing the same things over and over) *this is NOT directed at the quoted poster, just in general* _____________________
"Have gone to commit suicide. Intend to return from grave Friday. Feed cat." -- A memo by Spider Jerusalem in Transmetropolitan
"Some people are like Slinkies; not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." If you're reading this signature, I've probably just disagreed with you. Welcome to the club  |
|
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
|
08-09-2006 05:34
Sator, the biggest problem that I had with the original implementation of slstats.com was that people in the real world, who didn't have a CLUE what SL is or how things work in SL, could have had access to detailed lists of who supposedly associates with whom. Lists that had no basis in fact other than that you were within a certain arbitrary range of a sensor. It had massive potential to be misinterpreted by employers and others who try to 'investigate' the activities of individuals and pass judgement on them. I could very easily see cases arising from that which could destroy marriages, cost people their jobs, or otherwise harm people in real life.
Snapzilla and the like are not searchable cross-indexed text data sources listing every participant, readily data mined by any idiot out there on the Internet who is feeling like snooping into other people's business. A snapzilla photo doesn't list the names of every person in the picture. No website that I would deign to visit ever makes the lists of all people who access that site a matter of public record, and compiles lists of 'associations' based on the fact that two people happened to access the site at the same time, while oblivious that the other existed. Now that Mark has locked down slstats.com so only people who are willing to be listed by it are in the database and have access to the data, I have no major problems with it. I agree with Ron Overdrive that he would be better off just eliminating the sensor sweeps altogether, and having each watch transmit only data on the user of that watch to his servers. A competent bit of coding on the server end could determine what registered watch users were in a certain range of each other, and there would be no need to lag the sim with scans, or to transmit data that will largely be discarded at the server end. _____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
|
|
Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
|
08-09-2006 05:41
To be truthful, you lose more privacy visiting the website than you do appearing on it, as the owner now has your IP, which in some cases can be traced very near in location. The owner can also find out your screen resolution, your operating system, which browser you use, which langauge your browser is set to, etc. Honest question.... isn't it possible to do alot of this without ever even visiting a given site? I've seen in these forums those sigfile graphics that say along the lines of 'Your IP is X.X.x, you are using Windoze, your father smelled of elderberries' etc.... which give the impression that even loading that inline graphic is exposing this information to the server the graphic resides on. With that, someone could just put a graphic in their sig and datamine the hell out of anyone in SL forums. -Ghoti _____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
|
|
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
|
08-09-2006 05:48
Honest question.... isn't it possible to do alot of this without ever even visiting a given site? I've seen in these forums those sigfile graphics that say along the lines of 'Your IP is X.X.x, you are using Windoze, your father smelled of elderberries' etc.... which give the impression that even loading that inline graphic is exposing this information to the server the graphic resides on. With that, someone could just put a graphic in their sig and datamine the hell out of anyone in SL forums. -Ghoti And again, the big differentiaon here is between one person, such as the owner of a website, gathering data that only they can access, and someone compiling massive lists and making it publicly accessible but anyone with a web browser. The single user knows what he's compiling, and hopefully understands what it means. The person who finds ready-made lists of associations on a website likely has no clue as yo the validity of the information. _____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
|
|
Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
|
08-09-2006 06:48
Not really. I see. Well, that's good to know. And again, the big differentiaon here [...] The person who finds ready-made lists of associations on a website likely has no clue as yo the validity of the information. So if SLstats records had been visible to subscribers only, even with all the full-blown stats listed, like before Mark reduced them, that would have been okay? Was the issue open access to the data? I thought this was more about the gathering of data itself. I confess I used the watch for a couple days, as I thought it would be neat to be able to track my usage of SL and have charts to look at and stuff, but after a certain in-world encounter with a zealot (you know who you are), the big blow up here, and a concerned friend asking me to not use it around her, I decided it was just not worth the grief, so I took it off. -Ghoti _____________________
"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
|
|
IC Fetid
Registered User
Join date: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 145
|
08-09-2006 06:52
I simply won't login to SL until this is resolved
|
|
Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
|
08-09-2006 07:05
So if SLstats records had been visible to subscribers only, even with all the full-blown stats listed, like before Mark reduced them, that would have been okay? Was the issue open access to the data? I thought this was more about the gathering of data itself. For me, the issue was that I was being tracked, spied on if you like, without my consent, by people I didn't know, for purposes I was unaware of. Sure, people can look up my in-world profile and get much of the same information, but that's because I decided to put it there. When I can look up on a third party website, which has absolutely no connection with Linden Lab, and be told that during the last week I spent time with avatar A, B, C and D, then that oversteps the mark. The specifics are irrelevant. It's the principle, which I still hold as a direct violation of the terms of service (disclosure and harrassment spring to mind), that I personally object to. I am still awaiting a response from Mark for his assurance that I have been removed from the database. I expect it to be a long wait. Lewis _____________________
Second Life Stratics - your new premier resource for all things Second Life. Free to join, sign up today!
Pocket Protector Projects - Rosieri 90,234,84 - building and landscaping services |
|
Sator Canetti
Frustrated Catgirl
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 130
|
08-09-2006 08:02
Not really. Those are client-side tricks in the page's code. I've written that sort of DHTML web page coding myself. It displays at your end, but doesn't send back to the server. Actually, that info IS on the server, since the server needs to make the image. The image is sent as an actual image. Right click on it, try to save it, it'll be possible to save it as an image. Server gets info, server adds data to picture, server sends picture to browser. A malicious person could use this to get the IP's of people they don't like in SL and begin to track them down. <--- one of the reasons I disable images in sigs on the forums I admin, and suggest to the ones I moderate. _____________________
"Have gone to commit suicide. Intend to return from grave Friday. Feed cat." -- A memo by Spider Jerusalem in Transmetropolitan
"Some people are like Slinkies; not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." If you're reading this signature, I've probably just disagreed with you. Welcome to the club |
|
Ordinal Malaprop
really very ordinary
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,607
|
08-09-2006 08:05
Yes. It is, of course, pretty much impossible to actually determine which one of however many people view the image is the one you want to grab the IP of. But you can sometimes make an educated guess.
I've seen the tactic used in emails as well; if you create an HTML email that links to a tracker, you can grab the IP of the reader if they don't have images turned off, which they should. |
|
Tre Giles
Registered User
Join date: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 294
|
08-09-2006 08:16
I hadn't really been keeping much of a close eye on this whole slstats.com debacle. Generally, I didn't feel like anything bad was going on here, and I decided not to bother opting out. I changed my mind, though, when I found out that the opt-out system was a farce, asking you 3 times with varying buttons and other trickery whether you were REALLY sure you wanted to opt out and whether or not you were lying. That was over the top in my opinion, and made a mockery of the fact that people were requesting opting out in the first place. I went to try to find myself an opt-out box two days ago. By then, the short-lived (only a day, it seems?) opt-out box was no longer available, and the "opt out" link on the slstats webpage was gone. Mr. Barrett was present, so I asked him where the opt-out box was, and he informed me that I can't opt out. After a bit of discussion, he told me that slstats had been changed, and that the system didn't record any information about me if I didn't have a watch. I used to be able to do "Resident Search" and see my name and which watch-bearing avs had been near me, but now it prompts me for a login. I had my watch-wearing friend log in and run a search on me, and there is still data about me in the system. It still keeps track of who has "seen" me. In fact, there was even an entry from Mark Barrett's watch, which had recorded the fact that he'd seen me while he was in the process of lying to me and telling me that it wouldn't be recording anything about me. He has not responded to my offline IM in which I challenged his lie. He's had a day and a half to do so, so I feel justified in coming forward to the community on this one. Not only is there no opt-out system as promised, the site has been purposefully restructured so as to hide the fact that information is gathered on non-watch-wearers, and Mark Barrett has directly lied to me about this. I think the problem here is the lack of honesty, openness, and cooperation with the community, rather than any specific information that has been gathered. In thinking about it, what makes me most uncomfortable about the data is that a connection can be made between me and people with whom I'd rather not associate -- all they have to do is come hang out within 20 meters of me -- and slstats.com will assert that I am their "friend". What upsets me the most, however, is that the maker seems to be doing this without regard for my preferences, and actively lying to me to attempt to brush me off. Everything on SLstats.com is the same as anything you could find by searching someone's name and looking at their profile. I don't see what the big deal is. Its like like thay are telling everyone about your RL life is it? _____________________
"The Dirt Gods Are Pleased" OMFG I FOUND HACKS TO SECONDLIFE ON GOOGLE??? Hacks!!!? Found on google lmao! |
|
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
|
08-09-2006 08:51
I simply won't login to SL until this is resolved You are going to have a long wait. Even if Mark gets rid of his program there are others out there running now and they will be running tomorrow. These programs will be gathering names of residents, where they are located and who they are with. Also with camera you can get pictures of residents doing the "nasty" with each other including the nametags. I can think of an easy way to make a copy of my client screen just using my windows. Even if Linden Labs can somehow disable all of the copy functions on my computer (fat chance!) there are other ways to record the image on my computer monitor. I am trying to think about all of the programs that can be used to get information like this. Oh your you "privacy" types, unless I am wrong disabling the function that makes Marks watch work would also disable all of the security orbs as well. A bargain if you ask me! Can a scripter comment on this? Oh in my investigation it seems that these watches might cause a lot of LAG and its effects seem somewhat suspect. Still the investigation is still in progress! Thanks! Ranma |
|
Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
|
08-09-2006 09:41
Everything on SLstats.com is the same as anything you could find by searching someone's name and looking at their profile. I don't see what the big deal is. Its like like thay are telling everyone about your RL life is it? No, it isn't. My profile doesn't tell you what other people were near me in the last 5 minutes, and compile lists of people I 'met' over time, and make that accessible on the Internet to people who don't play SL. My profile doesn't tell you how many hours I was on-line and playing in SL this week. My profile doesn't imply that the whore on the other side of a wall, turning tricks outside a dance club, is someone I like to spend time with, when in actuality I only go to that club to dance, and I never knew the whore was there. My biggest complaint was that these so-called 'encounters' listed by SLStats.com could readily be misinterpreted when taken out of context by data mining, and read by people with no clue about how inaccurate the associations were. With the system now being opt-in only, and only displaying data on people who knowingly signed up for the service and agreed to expose their data in that way, it becomes their free choice. I'm just happy to be left out of that lab-rat experiment. In RL I would never consent to wearing a radio tracking device that somehow reported to a central site details about where I go, who I meet, and how long I do certain recreational activities. Especially not one that made that data public to anyone who wanted to access a website. I can't comprehend why any avatar in SL would do so either. _____________________
Sorry, LL won't let me tell you where I sell my textures and where I offer my services as a sim builder. Ask me in-world.
|