Voice Disapproval at the Convention

I will use a game I'm pretty familiar with, Anarchy Online, as an example.
In my time there I saw several occassions where a customer service type representative would reply/respond to posts from their community regardless of which forum it was in - regardless of how negative it might have been.

I know that with some people who use these forums, their posts are not even worth the effort of a response, but something is better than nothing.

I know there were more than one individual CSRs or "Arks" as they were called, that were involved in policing and working on the forums. That said, I would start by assigning the task of working on the forums to a specific "Linden" or group of "Lindens" who's sole task is to police and maintain the forums as well as act as representatives to the community within these forums.

I think from there, with a more "visable" and responsive customer service team, they would put a happier face on themselves and hopefully the community.

But before any of that could happen, they'd have to pay those people for the job, and they are losing money on this open registration policy. >

If you can imagine, in the resident forums, a Linden or team of them who actually address issues posed by the community directly?

Now imagine the "inevitable" closing of these forums where the only information relayed by LL is through a blog. For lack of a better way to say it, it's going to be even more impersonal. I'll feel as though I'm being talked at instead of with.

They say they're going to have more open lines of communication with the Lindens...that's great and more visable lines would be nice. But they're overlooking the reason SL is supposed to be what it is.

A community made by it's residents FOR it's residents.

That in mind I think the closing of these forums is in a sense the same as saying: what we have to say to each other as a community is irrelevant, too negative and too much work for us here at Linden Labs so....screw you, make your own forums and GL! Read our blog!

I've seen several occasions of the same here...


True. Rabid frothing does tend to get ignored... especially when it's the same issue over and over by people who can't be bothered to use the (search) feature.. :-/

Sounds like T.o.r.l.e.y. honestly... who does an amazing job of it.
Sadly, I think the diversity of 'want' here is far more wide-spread than one would likely find in a more strictly 'game' MMO where the complaints are typically nerfing, balance, and downtime. Also, I don't envy the Lindens, anytime they say *anything* it's suddenly "official", even if they say it's wild speculation. They really have to watch what they say carefully or the inevitable result is mass anger at not delivering on a promise. Even if they play it safe then people complain that they're not saying anything concrete.

Perhaps, but you can't know that. Easy entry means more people sampling secondlife. If of that increased population of newbies they have more people sign up as tier paying land owners they may actually be making MORE this way, not less.

Such as Andrew, Teeple, Kelly, Runitai, Babbage, Jeska, Robin, Callum, Steve, Morpheus, and of course, TorleyTorleyTorley that take the time to answer posts to "Second Life Answers" ?

I haven't much adopted to the blog thing yet. I do scan them from time to time. SecondLife answers is supposedly staying open as a forum as well. We're 200,000, they're, what, 50 to 100? There's a slight economy of scale problem here. Do you feel like you talk 'with' radio dj's, news commentators, actors? I think expecting them to talk "with" us is a little unrealistic in most cases. It's nice that they try from time to time though.

For what it's worth, we can't post to the 'official Linden Announcment' forum areas anyway, but we can reply (and be moderated) to the blogs. One could argue that it's a step to the side and up.



Um... yes, but "we" the residents didn't "make" the forums or SecondLife, we just fill them. Slight difference.



Well, you certainly have the "too negative" down pat.

If Linden Lab decides to shut down the firehose of "Atheists that attack Christians" and "Bush's Latest Antics" and "Three word threads" and related relatively non-SL related parts of the forums, that's fine by me.

Seriously though... I think the forums are a crutch, and they're compensating for something that is just plain MISSING inside of SecondLife itself. If getting rid of the forums helps SecondLife evolve into a medium that internally incorporates something (hopefully better) than the forums, then bueno... let's do it.

whats missing is that vital link between in world and website, the 2 are totally segerated

The secondlife answers does not even allow a follow up question by the O.P. That is a very one sided method. The blog for it's also very one-sidedness is a small step up from that feature even.

As for the part about radio d.j.s, news commentators and actors, they are all there for more or less entertainment/informational reasons. This statement almost puts a level of celebrity on the Lindens. I am sorry, I don't view them as celebrity I see them more as who I am paying monthly to deliver a product I am utilizing. To view it as nice that they try from time to time is almost excusing them from acting like service providers. I fully expect to be able to communicate with my cable provider, ISP provider, Phone Provider etc etc. That to me is what the Lindens are. Yes, some excel at the job they do and go the extra 100 miles at times but it truly is in the job expectation to serve the SL community. In that respect they are doing the community that pays them a disservice by removing something that the paying community sees as a value. I dont expect to go to a BBQ with them anytime soon nor will I get to hit the bars with them but I do fully expect communication from and to them.




Yeah, I think it is a step up from those areas. But taking away the active communication line among residents (i.e. the forum) is a step down.




But dont you think that paying monthly for a subscription and land tiers should afford something such as the forum if that is a service some of us want? I would not be happy if my cable company said "We really dont have the time or ability to man phones anymore. From now on we will scroll announcements on channel X. If you wish to get in touch with us or comment about our service then feel free to leave a message on our machine. Otherwise case closed, we have made our choice and "as the days go by" roll with them changes. I would be looking for a new provider. SL has the VERY lucky stance right now of not having another provider quite like it out there. If they did once we said "please dont close our forums" they would have said "Woah, sorry.. we will let them remain because you find it a valuable part of your service".





OH Jopsy, I could not agree with you more! Let the politics and religion and what have you be sent to their respective forums. This is SECOND LIFE, I couldnt care less about who you voted for, what you believe etc. But there are such vital things on here that will be missed sorely. So much is learned here in the very threads that are going away. I have learned much in them and I see posts over and over that help others. If they did away with the sandbox and limited the resident conversations to SL related matters I could totaly live with that.

I honestly think that in some ways LL has decided to move on without regard of resident feeling. They are only motivated by what is good for them. The Tao is simple.. if it feels good to you do it. That is not a way to serve a community of paying customers. I thank those Lindens who stretch beyond what they feel like doing and say "That is broke, it is gonna suck to do it but I am gonna fix it". That is customer service. Even if you view the game as a "platform" or "community" the residents should have a voice. If this is the voice we want we should be entitled to it. Simple really. Take care of your customers and they will remain. They aren't rock stars, they are my provider of service. That is what I thank them for.

so, i have seen these forums and their moderation/usage/expectations cmopared to platforms and other service providers. with that in mind, i went and took a look at the (HUGE!) Microsoft forums and the (more informal) Comcast forums.

after skimming through their respective sets of forums rules, i can see more clearly how these forums are such a hardship to maintain.

if these forums were run like these others i've mentioned, half of the posters would be banned and/or mostly edited out of existance.

for one thing, in complete oppostion to (almost?) any other official product forum, these forums allow profanity as long as it isn't used to attack another person. any other forum could have several options to use.. from a language filter to moderators editing out such language to banning the poster from the forums.

i believe it was the Comcast forums where you can be banned for trolling and possibly for flaming. here? usually? a thread is closed or an edit is performed, sometimes a poster is contacted directly and asked to edit their own posts. (this actually has a great turn-around rate! although seldom employed)

the point is, with stringent rules you can just hammer away at anything slightly off-color and keep everything shiny and happy; however, you lose much of the - flavor. this method is also a much easier way of moderating.

now, with our forums, we have a rather hefty set of variables to work with that are meant to keep things as civil and organized as possible, while at the same time allowing for the broadest spectrum of expression.. which is what the forum community at large has generally stated as what they wanted over the past year or two. (ever since it became an issue, really)

so, yes, closing what fourms are being closed is an alleviation of allocated resources. no, it's not because of criticism of LL.. it's due to negativity between resident and resident.. and to a fair amount of posts showing up in the wrong places, along with similar problems that need to be addressed on a one on one basis.


is it easier to clear away rubble with a bulldozer (other forums) or to allow the structure (community) to remain largely intact by sifting through problematic areas with a small pick?

and that's why these forums are so hard to moderate.. and why (i believe) LL sees fit to use that proverbial bulldozer and demolish that which uses up so much time that could be spent elsewhere and more productively than as a clean up crew.


bummer, for sure.. i HATE seeing these forums close. i've always thought of them as the pulse of SL, a place to get a feel for everything SL-related.. as well as having fun. (such as the 3 Word Thread.. a thread which always brings a warm smile to my face)

if there's any way the forums could be "saved", it's by the forum community acting like they care and trying to show that we can conduct ourselves in a manner that wouldn't require such an amount of resources to moderate them.

A dog is a dog. Humans in virtual spaces will always behave exactly as you see here. That's why one can read a humorous article on the 12 Commandments of Flaming and it will be as true for a person 15 years ago on usenet as it is for us today.

The forum closure is a decision by LL and LL alone and I think you do an unintentional disservice to everyone when you place the burden of the forum's fate on their shoulders.

I'm going to miss you, Cybin.

~Uma~

first of all.. those 12 rules were rather entertaining.

more importantly, you have a point that LL are the ones making the decision; however, it is the behaviour of (some of) the forum community that has caused such a decision. that's just pure logic though.. if everybody posted within the guidelines and there were no posts/threads worth sending an AR about.. or needing of moderation in any other way, then the forums wouldn't be too hard to manage and would never have even required the question of whether to close them or not.

the burden may lay on LL's shoulders, but that burden is made of words typed by parts of the forum community. *shrug* (not really my opinion, more of an interpretation of what has been stated in several places by different LL staff)

and in closing.. i'll miss you too. (maybe i should go check the SC forums?)

*ponders after sleep* I'm not so sure it's just the negativity of the forums and the behavoir of the posters that lead to this. If it was, they could as many other places do, employ a posting filter that simple doesn't allow you to post if there are certain flame inspiring words in them. That would remove a bit of it, though not all. There are ways of doing this, without removing them completely!

Removing the forums feels like a bad combination of the verification system removal and well, the blanket resolving that Linden Labs tends to do from time to time. They don't do it with full forethought for the community. Do I think they'll allocate the resources to other things? No. I've been through too much both here and elsewhere to think that anything else will improve just because they close the forums. Do I think that they will have their tools in place before they close the first forums? No. Look at the verification removal as proof.

Now before you think that I'm being too negative, here's this. I WANT them to prove me wrong. I deeply want them to have their tools in place that will help the community of SL grow together. I want them to be in good working, nearly bug-free order before they close the first forum. Do I think this is too much to ask of the Lindens? No and it's not because I pay for the pleasure of being here. It's because I know they can do it if they really want to and they can do it rather well when they set their collective minds to it!

And one final thought on the bulldozer/pick idea.
Micro managing or throwing the baby out with the bath water are two extremes. Either can be knee jerk reactions to a problem you can't deal with.
As mentioned there are filters and banning IP addresses is another option. Will that completely change things? No, but it sure would be a huge help.
A restructure is necessary. Things have been out of hand. Let's not forget though on most days the good far outweigh the bad. Just because some jack ass wants attention by posting a thread saying they hate some religion or sexual orientation to get a rise out of some people doesnt make the whole board evil. Oddly enough the open registration is a factor in all this as was mentioned. It is funny this knee jerk reaction wasnt applied to that. Oh, that is because that is not something the people that made this decision have to deal with in world. Here it gets to show it's ugly face to them. So sorry you had to deal with that.. we'll try to keep these asshats you let in on our land out of your hair. Wait, that's not fair. There are good ones all over too. In fact the good outweighs the bad LL would say. More benefit to letting the open registration stay instead of closing it. Hmm I say the same thing about the forums you are getting rid of. I wish I had some say in that....

And as within the game, I report idiots. Frankly, the filtering could even be set to take out things that seem to attract flames and trollers. Some of the truly PG boards simply changes words like "bikini" into "cardigian." Heck, that site even had an automated banning system. Try using the 'adult' words too many times and you got a time out for a few hours.

I don't think we need the word changing filter (imagine trying to advertise for a bikini in the classified forum ), but filtering with an automated "time out/banning" system might not be a bad thing. I'd accept that to keep this forum opened.

If it is because there are soooo many posts in the archive, well, why not just have an auto-time out on them? I'm not going to look back 4 - 5 years to something that is no longer relevent. With the way things change in game, that would hardly be a bad thing. *ponders* That would probably also help with the 'search' issue that everyone complains about. Not as many posts to scan should equal less 'stress', shouldn't it?

And yes, the blog does serve it's purpose. It has become the archive for Linden Announcements, so why not time out that board to about a month? Heck, given that they keep trying to close boards, why not close the Linden Boards, but leave the resident-friendly ones? Most of the Linden based ones have other sources. By Linden boards, I mean those that residents can't respond to.

I don't know if the Lindens in charge of the boards have looked at all the options. I'd like to, though.

Clearly you get far far far better service from your cable provider, ISP or phone company. If I get through to a human voice, it's someone in India. Not that I have to try often, I don't expect the diversity of offerings from each that I do from SecondLife, and neither are they fledgling new services making it up as they go along.

Sure I think it would be in LL's best interests to have strong communication with their customers, but I recognize that "we" come and go, and their top priority is making their product and service better for future customers. Investing more labor and priority in trying to make malcontents happy may or may not help them with that objective.

I will miss the more frivilous aspects of the forums... I hear your points but think the analogy is more like LL posting a "NO LOITERING" sign out in front. They aren't closing all of the forums after all, just trimming them back significantly.

Whatever analogy, whatever anyone's feelings I once again find myself thinking that LL doesn't really give a second glance at posts asking for it to stay as it is. If they cared and wanted to satisfy this customer base that is cleary unhappy they would likely have done it already.

I have gone through different phases about the way I feel about the closure. Today I more or less feel like we are singing loudly to a stone deaf audience. The song means something to us but they will never hear the meaning. Or if they do they will write it off as a loss at a time when thier track record for satisfying customers is falling down some.

I suppose the misconception was this is democracy or that the customer is right. OK, I hear ya LL. Pay my monthly dues and move along, nothing to see here right?

Thanks to everyone that made the forums fun. With not knowing exactly when they could be pulled I guess I should say it now before I cant. It was a blast!

Which is right there part of the problem.

The forum rules say they are "PG" forums, just the same as the PG areas in world. Obviously, they don't really mean that at all. Ergo: The rules mean absolutely nothing. Do not bother to respect them.

Secondly, despite this particular (unusual) little forum group who is so enamored of dirty words (enough to devote a whole thread to one of them, which is now in the sandbox), no. I mean, just plain old no. Consider the rest of the world. This isn't the way things are when you go out in public in the real world.

Or consider TV, if you want to, and what right now PG means on TV, versus, say, what goes on cable stations. If you want to compare it to movies, you would have to actually use the standards the ratings people use, which amounts to literally counting up the number of this and that bad word used. Which of course can't be done on a forums with many voices.

And there is no way away from it. The forums is rated antagonistic and X-rated, like it or lump it. That is your only choice in these forums.

Here, without the PG rule and the "no attacking" rule meaning what they say, what we have instead is a cesspool of anything goes (including saying "f you" to another person, depending on who is doing the saying and who he/she is saying it to, and how the Lindens and resmods happen to feel about the individuals involved). That sort of language and antagonism really isn't appealing to many if not most (and I would argue most) people.

In other words, the Lindens and resmods who run these forums may WANT it to be defined in their own way, like in the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland insisting a word means what he says it means. But in fact that sort of wishy-washy "interpretation" makes no sense and has zero corrollary in the real world.

If you have rules that don't mean what they say, and are only enforced sporadically against some individuals, but not others - then you have a system doomed to failure.

You just can't have a system where you lay out rules then go out of your way to explain how you don't really mean them.

Truth is, the rest of the world simply isn't as foul-mouthed. They should get rid of the forums if for no other reason than they've attracted people who have found a playground where they attack anyone they like, and can be as foul-mouthed as they like, including devoting whole threads to the sheer joy of actually writing a dirty word, much like a five-year-old would find joy in speaking one.


Yes, Cybin, you would lose much of the flavor, but you need to take into consideration that perhaps not everyone ENJOYS a flavor of profanity and constant attack.


I don't know, Cybin. I don't remember a vote, except one I put up a long time ago (where did it go?) in which many people did express a desire to have the place cleaned up. I think they count. (I'll post it if and when I can find it.)


I agree with you on that. I think these forums are far too gone, and have been for far too long (since I joined) to waste any more time trying to (kinda sorta) fix the problem.

I would hope instead that they would deep-six them, then maybe wait a few months. Then start afresh, preferably with unbiased paid moderators, and with rules that mean what they say, and rules that require the same civility that is required of adults interacting with strangers in almost any actual real world environment, such as the bank or grocery store.

That's not to much to ask, and prevents bullies from taking over.

coco

I don't post on the other forums except a few posts on secondcitizen... I'll have to post on them eventually though. I won't enjoy it as much as i enjoyed posting and reading here, but i can't just pudder around a sim all day watching stuff come and go. Without the forums i might not even spend a whole lot of time in SL since it gets so quiet... I choose to hang out on the forums when that happens. So yea... Removing the forums has a 90% chance at silencing me for good, except for the ruckus i will cause over the support lines when i need help with things...

When you post on the forums you have atleast a 80% chance of getting a answer within a few minutes to your question. When you use Linden Support methods it usually takes a few days to a month if you even DO get a reply... They should hire us to do support since the forums are filled with answers by users who have been here long enough to know whats going on.

*nods* I think from now on, if I have a simple question, with even a simple answer, I may just call the Support Line and ask the question prefaced by, "Since I can no longer ask on the forums about this particular problem and there doesn't seem to be any old posts concerning it..."

It'd be the truth. And most of the questions I'd have aren't covered by the knowledge database, as I tend to find that something I'm doing or not doing has nothing to do with anything the Lindens have seen fit to provide information on. I wonder if the Lindens are as imaginative as the lot of you!

Wait, you confused me. So the BLAHg wont be able to help with that stuff? That sounds like we are trading a valuable resource for hot air and "look what I can do" blog posts.

hmmmmmm

The forums have actually been a bit less interesting lately. I had quite a bit of fun back when certain ego's were trying to influcence the L$ exchange rate by posting inflamatory nonsense to the L&E forum, but that seems to have been curbed for the most part.

I have no intention to go to any of the resident run forums. Frankly, I've been on the internet since the late 1980's... these are the first forums that really drew me in as a regular participant. As they get trimmed back, I'll just go back to my normal quiet ways.

(and undoubtedly spend more time in SL without the forums as a distraction. )

Same here. I've been to a few message forums during my internet life, posted here and there, but these forums are where i've said the most. When they die i'l have to find something else to do...