how to be an unprincipled wanker and pretend you have principles

It's very much not the same.

OMG, why should we use logcial rules to consistently enforce community standards!

So that the people who are trying to abide by the rules understand what they are. Otherwise the vague interpretation is different for each of us. For instance, where I think giant blue political signs are A-OK, someone else might not, then we might end up in endless debate over what the right thing to do is after the fact.

Every society must make a trade of between free speech and the risk of offending others. Between the right to do what you want on your property and the communitys interest in preservation of aesthetics. Every single solution isa compromise. and each comprimise is frought with grey areas. The united states goverment has been dealing with this for just over two centuries and has amasssed a huge body of law relating to Free speech, Zoning, and Public and private nuisance, as well as extorition and fraud.

I for one can see why SL takes the satance they do, it is the easiest and does not involve a tos that fills seven volumes. for each point there is a counterpoint, and a lawyer could get rich spending a life time arguing the nuances involved.

It is not at all clear this guy is harassing or extorting and not just speaking his opinions, it is just easier to beleive that because you want to. By his own admission he has sold very fiew of the parcels, and s not openly solicitng, to my knowlege, sales of the land. I grant you it is a most foolish way of coducting the discussion he wishes the world to engage in, but it is right to do what he wants on his land as things stand.

Lorfly makes some very good points, but then so does everyone else-there is a balance to be had. the question is how bad do you want lawyers and courts in SL to enforce you view, or to decide when it is acceptable for LL to censor your opinions? None of us maybe happy with these signs, but LLs' decision is not bullshit, or worng. It is the only way they can react without opening the floodgates. In this day and age when even yahoo is pulling down forums because sponsors like mcdonalds and pepsi do not like the content, I for one am happy that LL has taken the courageous position of not compromisng speech, even if it means I gotta look at some jerk-off's sign.

Sooner or later pepsi, coke and mcdonalds will be in second life, and the world as we know it will be compromised by thier "family values" enjoy this time of freedom while you can.

Jake, what the guy said in that interview, and what he (allegedly) said to numerous residents who interacted with him on this matter, are opposite things.

coco

The point where RL adverts start appearing is the point where I try to join a gated community and stay inside it as much as possible, or maybe just not bother with SL any more; those interfere with my enjoyment more than a hundred griefers with push guns. At least ads for SL products and stores actually refer to things within the same universe.

It may well happen, though, I agree, and the best defence against that happening is to make it clear that the SL community does not appreciate that sort of advertising, and it will in fact be counterproductive. (If such a thing ever starts to occur I for one will be regularly posting examples, trying to get it on boingboing and generally doing my utmost to harm the company concerned's public image.)

As far as impeach bush extortion goes, the only remedy now seems to be:

1. Do not buy land from this person;
2. Do not sell land to this person;
3. Do not do any business with anyone who sells land to this person;
4. Block out the signs as much as possible

since it appears that, while SL is full of arbitrary laws and decisions, they're not going to be extended to prevent someone taking the piss. Whatever. Community and communal action is what we've got left.

Quite. I don't believe him for a second. Nobody sane would actually conduct a campaign to impeach Bush by being immensely annoying to everyone around them - and knowing that they're being immensely annoying from the feedback - entirely apart from the comments of other people who've talked to him in-game. It's a joke that anyone would believe this; he's using the pose to, well, be an unprincipled wanker and pretend he has principles.

To the contrary, Linden Lab can do whatever they damn well please: their servers, their rules, their discretion.

Their decision not to act in this matter despite numerous Hotline posts indicating actual or prospective loss to player sales or LL revenue resulting from this do-as-I-please signmaker was an affirmative decision to not do anything.

'twouldn't be the first time LL shot themselves in the foot by taking the easy way out.

Seriously.



I've covered the IB signs in a number of spots and never heard a peep about it from the accused. I wonder when he'll get around to me. Maybe he doesn't like me.

I feel exactly the opposite. The day LL starts letting a majority of thin skinned people dictate what I can and cannot do on land that I pay for, then I would definitely feel that investing in land isn't worth it. It thoroughly boggles my mind that people are so myopic in their ire over these signs that they can't see the issue cuts both ways. His freedom to be an asshat with the impeach Bush signs is also YOUR freedom to not be bullied by your neighbor's subjective tastes. Personally, I think LL is taking exactly the right stance on this. Kudos to them for seeing the bigger picture.

And another thing... if you want to avoid this kind of thing, don't sell 16m plots!!

Given the outrage, it really doesn't seem like they took the easy way out. The easy way would be to ban the individual to calm the torch bearers.

Then how do you prove we cannot take him at face value? who is the tier of fact? waht protections and procedures do we need to protect him from being railroaded. How do we ensure that we are not stiffling the message or railraoding an innocent man out of the game.

You of all people Coco should be sensitive to the needs of protecting the unpopular, but innocent voice.

Ther es a lot to think about before LL just goes and takes down some sign, and tells somone how they can use their land.

I know what you meant by 'shot themselves in the foot,' but I'm not sure they really do. Or if so, the gun is loaded with blanks.

Why?

LL does (or doesn't do) something that few people agree with. People complain on the forum. People complain in SL.

What people almost never do, no matter how bad things get, is LEAVE.

Until LL starts actually seeing any tangible consequences for making moronic decisions, I don't see them caring about the complaints any time soon.

How many of these are impinging on your land holdings? It is very easy to preach tolerance when it is not happening in your backyard.

I will compliment you on your very Lindenesque placement of blame on the sellers of 16m plots, though.

I agree, Jake, about not railroading an innocent man out of the game, and protecting the unpopular, but innocent voice.

(Although I never suggested banning him from the game, myself; just making him remove the signs.)

If you are going to take him at face value, then you need to take all those OTHER people and their experiences with him at face value, too. In other words - you need to investigate it, hold hearings as it were, then make your decision.

The "you" in this case being the Lindens.

coco

I suspect that if you took a poll of SL users quite a few would be in favour of the message. It's not a matter of somebody being censored because their message is unpopular. This person is unpopular because they're being an arsehole. Is that a bad thing?

I can understand LL's position, but he's gaming them.

The fact that they have had nearly exponential growth and are still operating in the red is a pretty good measure that they're doing something wrong.

Why the hell am I still here? I bought a lifetime account and therefore pay absolutely nothing, have a number of good friends whom I met in-game, and still a sliver of hope that things might improve. Plus, I care to a vaguely unhealthy degree about SL based around a year and a half investment of time and effort.

Ah yes, curse the evil Lindens for not infringing upon their liberal viewpoints of free speech and property rights.

Nobody is able to counter my very large statement, the elephant in the room: Freedom cuts both ways. When you tell me what I can or can't build on my land, then I can tell you what you can or can't build on your land. Everyone loses.

If any sort of anti-freedom precedent is set on this, I'll be the first one with an axe to grind, ARing "ugly" builds on my own subjective whims.

"Oh, LF, you silly anarchy-communist, you need to grow up and take some responsibility for society!"

I am, dammit. SL is a terrific society, because it's free, not because some thin-skinned property owners don't like the prims being displayed on a lot next to them. If you want to live in a gated community, buy a private sim and throw your walls up and put your BDSM sexballs ALL OVER your little perfect green yard and your white picket fences and your immaculate mailboxes and your shiny happy neighbors who think just like you. That might be your vision of Utopia, but I'll be damned if that's mine.

And yet, if you moved next door, I wouldn't mind.

And if I did, I'd put a sign up stating as such, just like Mr. IB.

Finally, consider that tier isn't free. It's a very expensive grief to spend all that money on these swirling signs that everyone hates. If everyone ignores it (as they should), it eventually corrects itself. This isn't Activeworlds, where things last for eternity. If you dont' pay tier, it gets deleted.

Let this moron empty his pocketbook for his own jollies. Given the anecdotal evidence, he'll be banned for being a dickweed soon enough anyways.

Remember, Chairman Mao Says "No!" to limiting his freedom of speech.

Absolutely true. However, given the attention that this situation has already brought upon itself, there would be an absolute precident set that residents would expect them to follow - that precident being "well if enough people hate the guy, or if I bitch loud enough, I can have LL remove something from someone else's land that I don't like".




Again, true. I just happen to believe that their decision not to do anything is the only one they can make at this time.

After holding the same land for over two years you don't think I've had annoying things next door to me? Remember the race track with the cars that revved their engines 24/7 loud enough to be heard across the entire sim? Ever see the 200 foot tower that was built ten feet off the end of my dock? Or maybe the rotating 10 meter cube of women's asses that was right behind my place for a good six months? I tolerated all of it. Why? Because I believe all of those people had every right to express themselves however they damn well wanted to and it wasn't my place to tell them what to do or not do, just as it wasn't their place to tell me.

Excatly, now by what rules do we hold those hearings, who is the judge? is he entitled to counsel? by what rules are those counsel selected? what is the manner of presentation of evidence at the hearing. What is the precedtial weight given to the decisions?

my point is not about the specifics of this case, it is that there is a nightmare of regulation required to fairly go about making any decsion but the one LL did, and its not worth the mess to LL. You can bet that this would go to the media as "Online Virtual World Censors Politcal Speech."

Talking about grief builds...

Can someone pass me a really ugly build? I mean, much more freaking ugly than this contraption that I erected a couple of hrs ago? (PS-I already apologized to my neighbors about this)







With lots of contasting bright flashing colors and spinning parts? If it can fit a squarish 1024 sm plot and be copy and mod that would be great. I'm thinking of buying several strategic plots dotting the northern mainland in newly-subdivided sims owned by a certain clown-ass land baron and repaying a favor that I owe to her.

Well, I'll be damned if these signs aren't now dividing the community.

Sigh.

My poitn is that sorting out the arsehole from the innocent is a can of worms LL does not want to open. Always ask yourself what is going to keep them from doing the same thing to me?

LL will remove hardcore porn if I build it entirely on my lot, because people don't like it. I expect that if I built a sign saying "ALL JEWS MUST DIE" that would go too. There's no absolute position that's being maintained here.

Conceded. That was terrible and you therefore are practicing as you preach. Please accept my apologies.

There is a far cry between hate speech and political statements, especially as laid out in the TOS, no matter how questionably that statement is being used. The hardcore porn in a mature lot is a kettle of fish that others have discussed, and I'm not entirely sure myself where LL comes down on that. Given what I've personally seen at some Mature area clubs, I imagine they would more than likely let it stay.