Non-modifiable jewlery?

I get my custom (never to be used again) collars for $2500 and modifiable. Again this is not about price, my original post has nothing to do with price at all. It is about the customer, you clearly do not wish to allow your customer an end product they may modify to fit their specific needs. That is your right, it is also the customers right not to buy that product.





There is no such thing as "completely secure" when IP rights are involved. Even the MPAA and RIAA have to decide the limit on "security" and "usability". Items I mentioned without mod rights are clearly and completely unusable to me. That is the only discussion that was originally posted.



You make too many assumptions.




Again alot of assumptions. The merchants I do business with have excellent track records of not only given the customer what they need/want but of customer satisfaction and support on those products.




I have no doubt, I have gotten plenty of IM's on merchants willing to fullfill my needs, I will stick to those I have always used and browse the new merchants for new items.




Always a pleasure to discuss topics. The reasons are yours for your concern, I need not understand them nor agree with them. I will simply look for merchants that have similar thoughts as I do.

Fair thee well.

I don't usually say much in the forums, but these two statements in the same post made me laugh hysterically. The price of one of my limited (to 10) pieces is about L$2500 while they last and it takes about 3 weeks at 6 to 8 hours a day to make the original. And I'm pretty fast. So words like "complex" are quite subjective.

If you're charging L$5000 per copyable hour of primwork you are not charging reasonable prices and have become part of the problem you're hoping goes away. Which is more important, to have your work appreciated by the people who buy it or to make money?

Well...it was suggested earlier and the post and should work...simply put a warning with your modable objects that adding scripts to the inventory will cause your item to self-destruct and there will be no refund...then add the following script (I am writing it right now on the forums and have not tested whether it would need to be placed in each individual prim or only in the main object):

integer x;
default
{
     state_entry()
     {
           x = llGetIventoryNumber(INVENTORY_SCRIPT);
      }

     changed(integer change)
     {
          if(change & CHANGED_INVENTORY)
          {
                if(llGetInventoryNumber(INVENTORY_SCRIPT) > x || llGetIventoryNumber(INVENTORY_SCRIPT) < x)
                {
                     llSay(0, "You have added an unauthorized script to your object.  This object will now self-destruct.  If you wish to have another copy, you will have to buy it again.");
                     llDie();
                }
          }
     }
}

The code automatically detects how many scripts are in your object when it's dropped in. ANY change in number of scripts afterwards will cause the object to die.

There is one significant weakness to the script--if it's deleted, it can't cause the object to die. As far as I know, you cannot prevent someone from deleting a script in an object that they own and can modify.

If, however, you embed this type of code in another useful script for the object...it would be a good safeguard. (Say, like, a bling script for jewelry)

In answer to your question, the goal of any business is to make money.
If I were a hobby artist, and if I had any uncomfortable baggage about money whatsoever, and if the two conditions were mutually exclusive, the former would seem more lofty.
I am not a hobby artist.
I do not carry such baggage.
The two conditions are NOT mutually exclusive.
I think that creating Art is an important part of any society, and that appreciation of that Art is desirable end.
I also believe that my time spent on such Art, or any venture for that matter, is valuable.

If YOU are engaging in graphic arts and model building in a digital medium and you are NOT charging US$20/hour, then YOU are not charging resonable prices, are underselling yourself in the American market and do not seem to value your time in a business sense. If such is the case, I would have to say that you are a hobbyist and a "Labor of Love" maker. There is nothing wrong with that stance; however, LL wants to promote that SL is a business platform and not just a hobby space. There is a definitie disjoin between your headspace and mine, as I take them at their word, and you insist that my prices are not reasonable.

If you are putting in 126 hours per piece (The most conservative estimate based on the numbers you gave... 6 hours per day for 3 weeks) and only charging a total of L$25,000 for the 10 pieces, then you are making just over L$198/hour, or translated into US$, just under 80 cents/hour. Either you are BSing about how much time goes into the original, or you might as well give your pieces away.

L$25,000 is about US$100...
You're trying to tell me that you work for 3 weeks to make US$100.

Ludicrous! Not a living wage... Not even minimum wage!!

And that does not include the expenses that have to be addressed if you are a premium customer:
Annual fee(Cheapest rate for prem membership) US$6/month
Tier Fees (0-195+/month depending on the business running)
Promotions and advertising
At the rates stated, if you are a premium member, it COSTS you money to do business here. You are operating at a loss! That is bad business.

As it stands, I own a mall and charge a pittance for the rent so that new merchants can get their stuff out there, but I make a grand total of US$16.70/YEAR on the place after tier fees and annual fee. It's not like I don't give back to the community. I also donate a number of my works as freebies and giveaways so that newcomers can have nice things to wear. THe only place I MAKE my money is on my crafted items.

Now I will discuss and argue all day from a position of logic to defend my stance on this matter. I will present facts and figures. I will be happy to draw diagrams if necessary.

What I DON'T do in defense of my stance is go onto the forums and infer that someone who is trying to take LL at their word and run a business should work for 80 cents an hour because that's all I charge, and then tell them they are part of the "problem" because their prices are not "reasonable" as if working for 79.36cents per hour or less IS reasonable.

Some of us are trying to make this a business platform as stated in the LL business model.

THis does not solve Aradon's problem...
He wants to add scripts to his jewelry.
Not necessarily the Dupe script... but scripts nonetheless...

At this point, I think this thread should die...
Aradon has made his point and found his artisans.
The merchants who are running businesses have made their points.
There is a definite disjoin in the mindsets between the two groups.
This is not really a resoluble issue.
Hobbyists can (and apparently do) charge 80cents per hour for their time.
Tangible content creation via modeling attachments is an upper-bounded business in SL.
Time to find a new business.

Here's a possible solution for the texture problem:

1. You can't drop a script in an attached object.

2. You can have a no-mod script in an object.

Put the texture key in a no-mod no-copy script that self-destructs if another script is dropped in the same prim, and that only applies the texture while it's attached.

When the object gets a change message or a rez message, it does the check. If there's another script there, it suicides. If it's not attached, it changes the texture to blank. If someone takes the script out, they have to do it while the script's rezzed in-world, and they'll get an object with a blank texture.

For people who want to put scripts in the object, give them a transparent unscripted prim to put them in. They can copy *that* all they want.

There's still ways around this, but it really ups the ante... and it also lets you do stuff like having multiple textures. Sell them as "magic" bracelets, like those packets of "white" kool-aid that change color in water... and don't forget:

Two men are walking through a forest. Suddenly, they see a tiger in the distance, running towards them. They turn and start running away. But then one of them stops, takes some running shoes from his bag, and starts putting the on.

“What are you doing?” says the other man. “Do you think you will run fast than the tiger with those?”

“I don’t have to run faster than the tiger,” he says. “I just have to run faster than you.”

If someone REALLY wants to steal your textures, there's all kinds of ways to do it. All you need to do is make it hard enough that they'll go after someone else instead.

Turn the copy script around. Sell two copies of the object. One's fully textured and shaped, the other's a cruder version with full perms and a NO-MOD script in every prim that looks like this:

integer MAGICCHAN=676478635; // This needs to be kept relatively secret
integer OBSCURENUMBER=726784892; // This just has to be unlikely to collide
string OBSCUREWORD="fragglerock"; // ditto

default
{
  on_rez(integer param)
  {
    if(llGetLinkNumber() <= 1)
      llSetText("Adjustable Bracelet by Fred Jeweler.\n \n \n",<0,0,0>,1.0);
  }

  touch(integer num)
  {
    if(llDetectedKey(0) == llGetOwner());
      llMessageLinked(LINK_SET,OBSCURENUMBER,OBSCUREWORD,NULL_KEY);
  }

  link_message(integer from, integer num, string str, key id)
  {
    if(num!=OBSCURENUMBER||str!=OBSCUREWORD) return;

    llSay(
      MAGICCHAN,
      llList2CSV(
        [llGetLinkNumber()]+
         llGetPrimitiveParams([PRIM_POSITION,PRIM_ROTATION,PRIM_SIZE]
      )
    );
  }
}

Then in the real object, you have a matching script that listens on that channel (maybe after a touch) and does the corresponding operation, you can grab THAT code from the dup script!

Now the buyer can adjust the copy all they want, and when they have it the right size and shape the real thing will adjust to match. As many times as they want.

And you can make the crude version copy/mod/transfer and let people pass it around as advertising.

For the person who wants to put a script in the object, make the root prim transparent and not part of the object, and add this code:

// in the constants...
integer ROOT_PIN = 473647824; // keep this secret
string JEWELERY_NAME = "Name of the real thing";
string script_name;

//...
// in the touch handler
    if(llGetLinkNumber() == 1)
    {
      integer i;
      for(i = 0; i < 2; i++)
      {
        string name = llGetInventoryName(INVENTORY_SCRIPT, i);
        if(name != "" && name != llGetScriptName())
        {
          script_name = name;
          llSensor(JEWELRY_NAME, NULL_KEY,SCRIPTED,10.0,PI/2);
        }
      }
    }

// and add a sensor handler...
  sensor(integer num)
  {
     if(llDetectedOwner(0) == llGetOwner())
       llRemoteLoadScriptPin(llDetectedKey(i),script_name,ROOT_PIN,TRUE,0);
  }

Whilte all this is ingenious... I think we are not only getting away from the topic of the discussion but also just trying to make something easy into something complicated.

Like another poster said, I got my resolution and I have found more then enough merchants willing to provide me with product I need and wish for. Without any complicated script themes or prim usage or even hiden secret coded message or LLdie statements.

I will continue to purchase from only those merchants, those are the ones I will tell my friends, business partners, and guests to my sim about. Those are the ones I will promote in my Market(s).

Nah, I'm trying to turn something complicated (dealing with the unfortunately common non-mod objects by negatiating with busy vendors) into something easy that gives the vendors REAL free advertising.

lalalalala... the INVENTORY security script will not wooork

1. llDie(); do not work in attachments
2. go in a noscriot zone and deletethe security script (simple)
3. the changed CHANGED_INVENTORY event do not kick in other prims than the prim where the script is

well i havent copycat problems currently, and when i do:
- I make simpy a public anounce to ruin the copier's reputation
- my customers respect me and do not buy copycated products, because when you spend more than 2 months to offer the the perfectly scripted and beautifully made object and offer an exellent customer support, they know that you arent just a greedy crappy creator
- i will make a better item that outdate the copycated one and mine and bounce from it

very few peoples copy me and when they copy me they are spotted and stopped quickly, but you can ask around its usually the prim work and the scripting that make what my items are.

i love my customers, they consider me for more than just a retailer, and i like my customers too

Kyrah,

Thank you for the "Other Side" from a merchant's perspective.
It is good to hear that things are going well for you, and savvy merchants can learn from your missive that there are more tools in our arsenal against knockoff artists than just passive ones...

Perhaps taking a direct active role instead of an indirect one is an option to be considered.
I will give it a shot...
I will open part of my line up for mod... specifically the items that need to be sized... and see where that takes me.
My non-size-dependent items, (Brooches, pins, Bindi, Navel jewels, etc...) will remain non-mod until I am comfortable with whether or not this model works for me...

Since most of the Jewelry I create is NOT heavily scripted, I do not know how much aftercare my cutomers will need, nor how much opportunity I will have for providing additional services, as you do.. But I am willing to loosen the reins, so to speak, for the sake of trying to restore an important aspect of customer service.

Thank you Alain for understanding the difference between the hobby-artist (probably me) and the business person (you) and not getting upset about it, but explaining it in clear detail. Yes, I do give many of my pieces away. But I think the issue goes much deeper than mere economics.

As I see it I am not qualified to set the prices for my work. The future owner must do that and I have to take into consideration what they will ask themselves:

1. Is the work aesthetically appealing? A piece that is beautiful to one customer will be horrid to another. It is a very subjective question and entirely up to the customer.

2. If purchased, how much pride of ownership will there be in the piece? Again, I cannot answer that. Often this is an "artistic value" consideration, but sometimes a question of rarity. In a digital world where the manufacturing process is just a click and anybody can own anything it is very, very difficult to instill pride of ownership with the RL business model you described.

3. Does the piece speak for itself? This is a question of craftsmanship. Is it something that, with a couple hours of training, the customer could not make for themselves or have a friend do it? The number of craftspeople we know in SL is probably much, much higher than we know in RL.

Are we jewelers first or business people first? If you're a business person first then you must also take into consideration that there are people like me out there (I'm one of a handful) decreasing the value (based on the 1,2,3 above) of YOUR work. I mean, I give it away, so what are the chances of success of your selling it for RL prices? You will sell some, certainly, but there is a cap on the ability of your RL business model success applied to the SL economic template.

OK, and what about the other solution? Two versions, with the no-mod version mirroring the cruder modifiable version?

PS: the no-script point is a good one, but...They don't have to work in attachments, because you can't add a script while it's attached.
The script would obviously go in all the prims.

I have the mighty power to defeat any such script that would do any of those things... with 2 clicks.

Attach the item. Select it. Click on tools, then click on 'Set scripts to NOT running in selection'.

... the end.

As long as the jewelry as modifiable, there is no real defense against such a dupe script. Although I am mainly a scripter, and most of the pieces that I create are mainly vessels for my scripts, I am pretty sympathetic to the builders who spend a lot of hours creating these objects, only to have them stolen. I think every merchant realizes 99.9% of their customers most likely won't steal their product - it only takes 1 person to ruin it as it stands right now. I can completely understand if those are unacceptable odds for some builders.

Indeed, this is LL's problem, not the builders.

All that would do for my second suggestion would be to break the ability to modify the jewelry. The real necklace, the finely textured one, is non-mod. The "fitting" necklace is mod, but there's nothing you can do to it that will let you do anything to the real one but make it look funny.

After rereading your previous post, which I don't think I originally understood because I was under the influence of lack of sleep, I think it would be a pretty cool alternative - if SL wasn't as wonky as it is sometimes when dealing with resizing prims via script. The other problem of course is that the people that are most likely to buy your product - those who don't want to build for themselves, and newbies - might find such a system unintuitive and obtuse.

One of three things will happen soon.

A.) The vendors that Aradon is talking about will disappear slowly as their things start being stolen, and the supply of good, modifiable jewelry and similar products will dwindle to non-existance. I think even some major stores are starting to feel a little bit of heat from this.

B.) Jewlery will no longer be profitable, so the only people who will make it are the 'labor of love' people described previously. Few regular products from the same vendors will be created, leading to a huge gap between 'good products' and 'omg what the hell is that' products. The good products will probably be few and far between, and everyone will have them.

C.) LL will add more flags to objects, and everyone will be happy.

But would those people even be trying to modify the necklace in the first place?

Yes they would...
Most jewelry needs to be sized and fitted...
The only jewelry that doesn't need such fitting would be brooches and the like... nothing that has to drape, or fit snugly.

Because our avatars are not all of one size in just about ANY dimension, standard sized jewelry would be too small on some people, clipping under the skin or disappearing altogether inside the person wearing while floating 2 inches away from the body on others, giving a totally unnatural and undesirable look.

Alain: the way this discussion started out because people were making jewelry that wasn't modifiable - allegedly, the majority of jewelry wasn't modifiable. So either "most jewelry" doesn't "need to be sized and fitted" or people have been willing to accept the inconvenience of jewelry that can't be fitted beyond a set of preprogrammed sizes.

So, again, I ask, how often are "non-builders" going to need this kind of "move every prim" level of detail?

Very interesting discussion so far, especially as I'm looking to sell some of my jewelry designs in the near future. From what I have casually observed on random residents, many people do not even bother with adjusting the position of prim jewelry, happily living with necklaces stuck halfway through their neck and jutting out inches in front of said neck, even though the sizing looks like it should fit. I doubt those people would use a scripted resizing system since they do not seem to be aware of their jewelry being so ill-fitting.

As for +mod jewelry - I can see that it's very useful to be able to resize say, a choker where the part around the neck is made of a single prim - but what about more intricate designs, for example a chain with every link being an individual prim? I don't think it is realistic to expect people to bother fitting that kind of jewelry. Now, what about offering custom fitting? (send body shape + jewelry item to jeweler, and get it back individually fitted) - I can see it becoming very time-consuming, has anyone tried that route before?

I used to build jewelry around templates I made to approximate the shape of the average av. But experience has shown me a better way. Nowadays one of the persistent compliments I've had with my jewelry is its fit. I construct it around a mannequin av I wear. It always fits snugly and as intended on its eventual owner and follows the curves as it should. Assuming the case of a choker, every av neck is of variable size, so the placement of the choker would vary only by how far up or down the neck the choker sits. Every neck curves outward on the side, so if the choker is made to lay low it is constructed with the appropriate bend for the shoulder. Yes, prim-by-prim. If it is made to wear high then it doesn't require this kind of curve, but does require an up or down to find the location on the neck where it fits and looks best.

In the case of a necklace that dangles the jeweler has to be careful not to build directly against the clavical AND the back of the neck. This wouldn't allow a fit that would lay well on every reasonably shaped av. I have created a habit of always building with a mind toward the potential up-and-down adjustment of the wearer and so have an eye-ball gap of about .0075m between the prim and the skin. This is just practice.

The customer then only has to join me in my studio and I talk them through the first (and final) adjustment to lay the piece where it belongs. From that point on it will always sit correctly. If they happen to accidently mess it up they know I'll walk them through it again if ever needed.

To illustrate, I have attached a photo of a necklace with the requisite curves I mentioned above and the random av who tried it on. The wearer didn't need to fit it because as it was saved off my mannequin was perfectly laid down for her av to wear without adjustment.

Unless someone comes in with an ogre neck (which has never happened) and wants a prissy piece of jewelry that wouldn't match such an av I don't understand why jewelry has to be modifiable for "fitting" purposes.

I imagine that the amount of jewelry that's sold through vending machines far exceeds the amount that involves customers visiting a craftsman in their studio.

I can only commend you on your excellence and agree that at your level of craftsmanship there's no need for modifiable jewelry. How many people, though, have the same kind of hands-on approach? That doesn't seem similar to ANY sales experience I've had in SL.

The most recent piece of "jewelry" I bought is a replica Jaeger le Coultre watch... and if I had to make an appointment for a fitting, I doubt I would have bothered. For people who aren't into the whole "studio" experience, something that they can adjust at their convenience when their AV changes has more merit.. no?

LOL. Thanks for the kudos, I think. Nobody has to make an appointment except for limited pieces, and many of these pieces are available in one not-so-very-easy-to-find vending machine in SL.

But your point is very well taken. I understand now that I simply have zero experience with modifiable jewelry or reasons for it. I bow out for lack of much to say of relevance on the subject.

i got a necklace and the only part i can see is the part on the back of my neck....the word in front (spoiled) you cannot see and i cant modify its so what should i do now????

First, is it just a matter of moving the necklace forward on your av to lay it where it was intended? Find a free posing stand that will hold your av still while you right-click on the necklace, choose edit, and use the arrows to adjust it. Ask someone for a free posing stand or find one in Yadni's junkyard.

If the necklace is truly too small then send an IM to the av who made it and ask for either a modification that fits or a refund.

Assume the best of everyone from the start, but if the jeweler says "no" to both of these requests then use the necklace as an armband and don't buy anything from them ever again - and make sure your friends don't either.

Best of luck. If you don't come out of this with a smile on your face then let me know.