Non-modifiable jewlery?

I happen to purchase alot of jewlery.. mainly collars/necklaces turned into collars. This weekend though I ventured out of my normal collar merchants to see what other offerings were available and purchased a few collars and couple necklaces (about 5 total) from various merchants.

I have never had this problem till this weekend where the jewlery was non-modifiable.. in other words you can not add collar scripts nor resize the jewlery once you wear it.

My question is... what benefit does this give your customers? I am used to purchasing fully modifiable collars/necklaces from many Gorean vendors so this is the first time I have delt with non-Gorean merchants. Is this normal for jewlery to be non-modifable? It would seem that allowing jewlery to be modified to custome fit those that use it would be very customer centric.

This is just a question, I am not knocking how anyone does business though I just am unable to do business with those that do not allow the end user to fit their jewlery nor add scripts.

I don't do necklaces, perse, but for the things I do make, I stopped selling them as modifiable the day the dupe script was invented. I would imagine other merchants do it for the same reason. Any modifiable prim based object is really a full perms object. All it takes is one person to drop a script inside that will duplicate the object, and then the new copy will read as created by the duper, not by the original maker, and the duper can do whatever he wants with it from there. It's just not worth the risk.

I can certainly see your point of view, but what happened to customer centricity? Is not the customer the most important aspect of the whole process? Jewlery, above all else, needs to be molded to the specific AV who is going to end up wearing it.

You need no script to make an exact copy of something, just prim knowledge. I respect your decision but I will stay with the merchants that allow modification to the end user, even if that means a bit more expensive.

Thanks for the warning on the mod prims!! I am a clothing designer who has been learning hair for about a month and totally planned on making some mod so customers can change the color ( for example black with white tips would allow tips to show up any color client wanted).

It has taken me hours and hours of tinkering and getting around the hurdles to make hair that is store worthy. I had heard something about these scripts and had read of one or two instances when things like shoes were stolen but didn't understand what exactly enabled stealing to occur until I read this post.

This is quite a conundrum. I wan my clients to be very happy, but still I need to protect my work..especially hair as it is really time consuming and pain staking procedure.

Anyways, ty for explaining this evil script and giving me something to toss and turn over

peace
kaia

All of my jewelry is mod unless the permissions system makes a weird mistake (happens). Jewelry has to be mod so people can customize to their avatar. All of my jewelry designs are mainly texture based not prim based so copying the prims will get you no where.


Also as far as prim mirrors copiers, they don't work well on tortured prims, actually they are pretty useless on torttured prims, so there is little worry about there. If you are that concerned about people copying your designs in SL, then you shouldn't make anything. Anyone who has been building for a few months can copy most things by just looking at them.

I will add that hair is right with jewlery, if not even more important, to keep modifiable. I only purchase hair from one person, Lost, but I could not even imagine buying hair from him and finding out it was not modifiable. I would, of course, ask for a refund and discontinue being a customer.

Any object that attaches to a shape/form that is highly modifiable itself needs to have the ability to mold that object to the form. I can clearly see the merchants side of things, but customer satisfaction is more powerful then any "must have" object and I hope you can see this.

Like I said in the first post, I maybe only one customer.. but I spend quite a bit on merchants to keep two Gorean RP SIM's going. I will simply take it that those that wish not to allow the customer the option of molding and/or using specific scripts in their end product, not wanting my business. I will stick with the merchants I currently deal with and keep pumping my funds into them.

I do however thank you both for allowing me to see how vendors out of the Gorean community think on this subject.

Be well A/all

Ah, thank you.. I shall take a look at your stores and view the merchandise Eboni.

Be well

I don't think a merchant needs to hand over the keys to the kingdom in order to be customer centric. If someone needs a modification, all they need to do is ask. Generally speaking though, it's not hard to make one-size fits all items, even jewelry.

Also, it's certainly feasible to make items that can change size on command.


People who possess such "prim knowledge" have no need to buy it in the first place; they tend to make their own, so I'm really not concerned about them. What I am concerned about is the average layman who can just get ahold of the script, drop it into an item, and then put someone out of business overnight.

I once lost countless hundreds of thousands of $L (no exaggeration) to someone who decided it would be fun to take advantage of a permissions bug that came with an update. This person gave out copiable copies of my most popular products to everyone she knew. Within a couple of days, I went from selling dozens of those items per week to selling virtually zero. I can't afford for anything like that ever to happen again. The day LL closes the script loopholes is the day I'll start selling modable copies again. Until then, I have no choice but to play it safe.

Anyway, whatever the case may be as far as copying prims, you seem to be forgetting about textures. The look of a great item in SL comes about 20% from the modeling and 80% from the texturing. The textures make the item, period. The labor that goes into producing such an item is about 1% time spent on modeling and 99% time spent on texturing.

So, while anyone who sets their mind to it, regardless of talent, could eventually probably copy an item, prim by prim, it's pretty much impossible that such a person would also be able to duplicate the texture work (unless of course it's a completely flat item, in which case they could just take a screenshot). The dupe script, however would copy the item, prims, textures, and all. And the original creator wouldn't even get the benefit of having his name on it. So not only is the item stolen, but the thief gets to forever claim credit as the inventor. It's just not fair.

Again, I don't see any conflict between customer service and creator protection. If someone wants something customized, I'm only an IM away. If someone wants something with a lot of pre-existing options for customization, then the item can be scripted to possess such options in a secure manner. If someone wants something infinitely customizable, well, then I'd suggest to that person that they simply learn to make it themselves.


Your decision. Just understand and accept that just because an item is not set up to allow you to tinker with it doesn't mean its creator doesn't care about you as a customer. To imply otherwise is pretty insulting. Most of us bend over backwards to please customers all the time.

Also, realize that not all merchants who leave their items modable are so benevelent as you assume. It's not always for YOUR benefit. Don't get me wrong; most people are scrupulous, but there are those who use mod permission as a means to sell you more than you need. The first merchant I ever met in SL told me on my first day, "I make everything modifiable so that when people break them they have to come back and buy a new one." He then went on to explain that he makes most of his money selling L$1 items to newbies. In other words he sells the same item 5 times to people who are too new to know better, and he makes a fortune at it. I don't know if this person is still doing business this way, since I don't talk to him anymore now that I know better, but what I do know is that he is still in SL, and he's still one of the richest people around.

I guess what I'm trying to say is before you judge who cares and who doesn't simply by what perms they put on their stuff, how about getting to know the person? Find out by experience who's willing to stand behind their product, who's willing to do what it takes to earn your business, and who's not.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I use no textures (all blank) and lock all my work with no scripts.

In most instances in SL your numbers are probably right. It depends on the craftsperson.

In the first post I said I also needed the ability to add my own scripts, only mod items allow this.



I built two SIM's (The Woods and Port Cos) both small and big items (not all objects were built by me). I know prims and have prim knowledge but that does not mean I do not like to purchase from merchants. All the necklaces I purchased today I could of made and most likely will end up doing just that because of this or goto one of the merchants that do allow mod's.

Also, using a cliche, time is money. It is very true running my SIM's. I put a value on all products I purchase whether it is "less expensive" to make or to purchase. Collars (necklaces) are way less expensive to purchase.



I agree that is not fair, and instead of bringing it down onto your customers.. would it not be more beneficial for all to bring it to LL?



Adjusting the size and the ability to add scripts to a necklace (or other jewlery) is far from "something infinitely customizable". It is extremely common amongst the Gorean community to add personal collar scripts and/or AV control scripts to jewerly and probably the reason all the Gorean jewerly I have bought has been modable and why I was so shock as not find so much not modifiable out of the Gorean community.

As far as just an IM away... I found this approach to be extremely costly for all involved due to the time constraints. Not to mention that I may need a script updated, animation added, and/or notecard changed at any given time, I surely would not expect the merchant to be on a 24/7 call routine.



No insult, in this specific case, in the very specific item I described, with the very specific circumstances involved there is no other way to view it. The only way to add scripts and custome fit an object is to have it modifiable.. do you have another option? I would be very interested.



There will always be that one person in every crowd... as long as humans remain. But, on the whole, jewlery that is modifiable would benefit the end user more then hurt them and in the end may benefit the merchant also.



I do not beleive I judged anyone, I believe I said I can not use non-modifiable jewlery. This fact has not changed throughout this discussion. It is a simple fact I will not, not because of do not like the merchant but because I can not use the product, nor can not purchase non-modifiable jewlerly.

Be well

Can't you defend an object against a dupe script? Dropping a dupe script into an object would generate a CHANGED_INVENTORY event for other scripts in the object. A guard script could receive this event and count the number of scripts in the object's inventory. If the script count is wrong then llDie. Also, can these dupe scripts copy scripts within an object if they are no-copy?

I'm still a newbie by any age definition, though I've spent so many hours on SL in that short time, I'm more experienced than I might be otherwise.

I totally understand the concerns about theft and having one's intellectual and physical work stolen. I really do. However, as a consumer, mod furniture allows me to buy the piece I love that has the wrong colors and make it fit my home rather than passing it over and searching for something else I don't like half as much. It also allows me to not go home and try to duplicate it the way I need it, or have to beg the designer to customize the piece the way I need it.

Mod hair. I won't buy any hair I can' t dye to 'my' color. Period. I have a large enough collection now, that I could live if no one ever offered mod hair again, but I wouldn't like it.

Mod clothes. I don't like widely flared pants on me. Personal choice, gotta fix it or I dump the outfit or don't buy it to begin with.

Jewelry. Needs to be positionable. I've seen necklaces stick out at awfully weird angles and earrings floating somewhere below my earlobes before. I can't even imagine a dumbbell you couldn't position. I'm *skinny* and most of them are inside somewhere when you first put them on.

Theft is a problem, in game and in r/l, but its also part of doing business.

One of my favorite designers, Sky Everett (Sky Designs), not only makes all of her furniture modable, she was very enthusiastic when sent a picture of how I used two of her gorgeous candle filled cabinets to make built in units in my home.

I respect everyone's right to make their own choices on this issue, but there are some customers who will take their business elsewhere because of it.

Char

All jewelry is positionable, even if it is no-mod. Moving something is always the right of the owner. th issue in questions here is: Is it sizeable?

What this guy is asking for is to be able to mosify the fundamental aspects of the jewelry... not just placement... and even not just size.
He wants to be able to add or edit scripts in the jewelry.
He wants to be able to change the jewelry's behavior.



Yes, but in RL, we have recourse to legal proceedings. In SL, the local government, if you can call it htat, is extremely laissez faire about such things. Are we supposed to just "Suck it up"? Or do we do what we do in RL and take the necessary steps to protect our products using the means available to us?


I am sorry... as a builder, I gotta call on this one.
Building furniture is not the same as making jewelry.
Although furniture takes a certain level of talent to pull together nicely, the prim construction is pretty basic, and someone can steal a furniture design by looking at it. This is doubly so when we are talking about moddable furniture where the Fabric and texture are not expected to be the final product.

With jewelry, in most cases, texture is a large part of the jeweler's craft, joined with precision modeling (Getting something that small to look right when the smallest dimension you can have is .010 is not easy). But if someone can just drop a script in a piece of jewelry I have created and get a copy, complete with textures that I have paid good L$ to purchase or upload, that they don't even have to work at building the model, nor pay for textures, just Poof...full perms copy....
It makes the permissions system pretty redundant, except for No-mod, don't you think?



How would you feel if someone could just drop a script in your dancefloors (Awesome stuff by the way, for anyone looking for beautiful low prim dancefloors--Spirit Floors in Sammamish). They would be able to disentangle your secrets and processes for a good chunk of the "Magic" that makes your floors do their thing. This is why it is good your stuff is no-mod; jewelers want the same kind of protection for their stuff...

If the mirror script continues to spread, I think you may find more and more object merchants unwilling to yield that particular right any longer. Especially merchants who make unique or interesting items that are not so easily replicated by hand. Thankfully, no-copy scripts are not replicable, and as a scripter, this makes me happy. At least SOME of my products are safe.

The person who wrote the mirror script was trying to create an effective tool for builders to be able to make symmetry more effectively I have used it myself to make symetric items like wings, horns and relacement legs for avatars.. I do not blame him for the unethical use of his script, but sometimes I wish he had not been quite so clever.

Hi there! I am an assistant at Ricx Jewelry and I can assure you all pieces we sell are modifiable. With the diff sizes and shapes of avies you HAVE to be able to shrink and enlarge jewelry to make it fit just right!

If you need any assistence (in the jewelry area ) please let me know! Ill do what I can to help!

Alyssa

just a quick observation. having made jewelry myself from time to time irealized customers would need the offordabilty to resize pieces unless they specifically gave me thier AVs size coordinates ( which doesn't happen) so it's all set to mod, But... there might be a work around with a llSetScale call in a script that could easily be set in a list of sizes and called later by the new owner for example /88 My size, and a ring would resize from .050,.0.25,0.50 to say .030,.015,0.30 in circumferance.

That wuold be the only logical No-Mod workaround i can see, otherwise you risk losing future customers. besides it's nice to be able to make items copiable due to things like bad sim crossings where attachments unattach and go missing or just plain mess up in general.

Yep jewelry really MUST be mod. All my stuff is.

That will take care of one problem and create an additional problem and not even address the other problem.

1. You took care of adjusting the size.
2. You now created yet another listener
3. You did not address the ability to add scripts

I am very diligent of getting rid of as many listeners as I can, I even make my own touch balls for the furniture (yet another reason I need mod items).

I respect those that wish not to allow the end user, the customer, the ability to modify the product and like real life I have the ability to simply shop elsewhere and I do excersize that right. No offense to any merchant/builder, just I know what I want and I only purchase what I need and can use.

Well wishes.

OK I got two questions, what moral degerate would sell a Dupe Script. And does anyone know what the script looks like to make maybe a couterscript against it?

I assure you it's nothing to do with 'Gorean' or 'non-Gorean'. It's to do with whether or not people are sensitive or aware about having their stuff ripped off. I just assume that the world is filled with better coders, builders, and texturers than me...That doesn't stop me from producing things to sell, but I figure that anything innovative I may do that is worthy of notice and does get notice will soon be mimicked and spread through the dealer environment.

Actually I do agree with you on the term "sensative or aware", but about the customer. Gorean vendors know well they will not sell their collars without having them modifiable as all Goreans need to add scripts to them.

So it is not really anything against other merchants, it is just that there are specific merchants that are very well aware of their customer base and do indeed make sure their needs are met. Those are the merchants I will continue to use, milady is a prime example. I have boughten several "off the shelf" collars and have had at least two custome collars (never to be duplicated again) designed. All modifiable and she keeps getting my business because of it. She just happens to be very sensative and aware of her customer base. Other merchants may in fact be very aware and sensative to their customer base... perhaps newer, less knowledgable players that may "break" their product if mod is granted. Perhaps customers that do not need the ability to add scripts or those that do not mind listeners for pose balls in furniture.

In the end it is the merchant that needs to be aware of their specific customer they wish to attract and the right of the customer to decide if that meets their needs. My needs certainly are not your needs, but they are no less important

Safe Travels

Every business is a juggling act.
The owner must be sensitive and aware of many things:
1) The target customers' needs
2) The bottom line
3) Market trends/Environmental changes
4) Competition
5) IP Theft

Although the customer's needs are an important part of the equation for every business owner, sadly, the customer cannot run the shop, nor can awareness of the customer's needs. If it did, the need of every customer to have everything the merchant sells for free would immediately bankrupt the vendor. (An extreme example, I know, but the logical extrema of allowing the customer to dictate policy.)

An important part of the equation is the "Bottom Line", or how much, based on flux and flow of the product, do I need to charge for a given piece? I sense that you do not have trouble with this part of the equation in the current pricing strata, but I mention it because it will figure in later on.

Another is the changing trends of the market. Each piece has a lifespan based on market saturation, fashion trends and plain dumb luck. To make a business viable, any given piece of merchandise has to return to its maker a worthwhile amount in relation to the time it took to make the piece. This amount is split out over the number of pieces anticipated to sell over the lifespan of the product; this establishes the price of the piece. If a piece is too expensive, it will not sell... if it is too cheap, the merchant won't get maximum value before the lifespan of the piece expires. (Lifespan meaning how long it can stay on the market before people stop buying the piece.) Merchants adjust their prices based on maximizing the return from a piece. When they raise their prices (generally not a good idea because it shortens the lifespan of the piece) it is because they came into the market too low. It is better to come in too high and lower prices by having a "Sale". Sometimes, lowering prices can also extend the shelf-life of a given product by bringing its elasticity point down a bit. More on this later when I explain why it is BAD for business to have dupers.

Competition also causes a merchant to lower or raise his prices. Comparison shopping is alive and well in SL, and merchants have to compete with each other for your hard earned 2/5ths of a US penny/Linden. This also affects Prices, though not as severely, because someone who threw together "Some Stuff" is going to be able to charge less than someone who took an hour to assemble a prim necklace "just so".

IP theft... Here's where the problem in this discussion arises. Remember when I said that a merchant has to charge a certain amount to make his return on investment of time for a given piece? It does not take NEARLY the time to drop a script into someone else's work that it does to design, build, texture and adjust the model in the first place. COnsequently, the knockoff artists can sell MY product for a LOT less than I can sell it, and still make their money. In the meantime, the shelf life of my pieces has been shortened considerably by them saturating the market with a cheap duplicate. I must also compete with my own product in the market sold at a price point less than I can afford to position.

Now if I have a business, it behooves me to protect my product in any way I can. If the Gorean merhcants are able to somehow make it worth their while to allow Moddability, then the market has either been kind to them, the dupers have not found their market, they aren't making complex pieces (this is not true; I have seen some beautiful co-lars, but I am including it for completeness), or they simply do not value their time in a business sense and this is a hobby to them (which is fine, but when the dupers start stealing labors of love I think you will see a change in the Gorean market too).

SO what does all this mean? It means that dupers are parasites killing the host that supports them because when it is no longer business viable to design and make good quality jewelry, good jewelry makers will stop investing the time. If they have to compete with their own product in a market that already is getting penurious with the L$ because of the lost ratings bonus (It cut MY income in half, and I am a newb!), they lose both price point AND market share to someone who can STILL undercut them because they did not invest but a fraction of the time and resources to "manufacture" the "product" they sell.

That will leave the schlock artists and the "Labor of Love" folks. Maybe this is the wave of the future. I hope not, because schlock artists saturate the market with junk, and the "Labor of Love" folks are not consistent as merchants... they get tired of it and go away...POOF... no new product and no support for old product (THis last one applies to other merch besides jewelry, but the principle is the same). Oh and BTW, when the regular business merchants go away, the dupers will come for the "Labor of Love" guys because who needs to copy junk that's already cheap?

I think possibly the best answer to this is just to convince LL that resizing an object isn't something that should be restricted by permissions. If i could click no mod and my objects were still rescalable and repositionable on a customers avatar...that'd be perfectly fine with me. If someone wants to wear my shoes as big as they get....i do not care.

With a consumers ability to change the size and position of a no-mod item it would become much more time consuming to copy an item than to just resize it and keep it for ones self. Hopefully that would induce a "why bother" mindset in would-be thieves.

Short of a permissions change, this discussion really is a dead end. Anything that can be modified can be copied *exactly*(and if you have patience anything that you own can be copied, regardless of permissions), with or without a script. And anything that can't be modified is just a hair shy of worthless for the consumer.

Permissions ARE getting a makeover as we speak, from what i understand. Moving to a possibly better and more thought out system. Last i heard about this system (probably a year ago) it was a fairly long way off, but it is in research.

I hope you are right, Kenzington.

The current system is not viable if LL wants to continue with the illusion that the SL market is a practical commercial system and our IP is protectable..

That is all I am quoting as rest of the post completely went off the subject. No where was "price" an issue. This post is about two (2) things and only two (2) things:

1. Ability of the end user to resize the product
2. Ability of the end user to add their own scripts

I would also like to comment on your point of customers... in the end.. after all the fancy business school talk and number crunching.. your business is nothing without the customer. Not a thing, your whole business is built from the ground up to cater to the customer, without the customer you would no longer have a business.

This is my point, my only point really. While you certainly have the ability to dictate whatever rules you like to.. in the end it is upto the customer to decide if they wish to abide by that dictation or shop elsewhere. I have come to find, thru this post, I am not alone... customers wish to have modifiable product they can resize and add their own set of scripts to. As a merchant/builder it is upto you if you wish to supply those products or let those customers shop elsewhere.

My $L will goto those that produce a product that I find I can use. Just like I would never purchase a texture that was not transferable/copyable (and in almost all cases modifiable so 3rd party viewers can read them) I will not purchase jewlery, hair, nor furniture that is not modifiable. There are more then enough merchants out there willing to fullfill my needs it seems from the IM's I have gotten.

Thank you all for the discussion. May your travels find you safe.

Price is always an issue...
Unless you are willing to pay the L$5,000 it would take to pay for an hour of my time.
That's how long it takes to assemble a piece of complex jewelry: between cleaning up the texture, uploading it (oh...add L$10), assembling the jewelry and texturing it. Sizing and tweaking it (You'd be surprised how distorted something can get when you have to make it a particular size, but all parts must have no edges smaller than .010) and testing that it wears correctly. Making sure that the bling script works correctly and in scale with the piece...all of these things take time... and in any business, simulated or otherwise, time is money. Money is reflected in price. When my tier fees are free, I will stop worrying about money in this scenario... until then, it is always going to cut to the heart of any business transaction.



The current permissions sytem does not allow these things without giving away EVERYTHING. PLease help us protect our IP by joining with us to petition LL to fix their permissions system.



Unless my business can make money, it is not a business and will not be there to give you the content you, as a customer, desire. This is the timeless power game between merchants and clients. Take a business course; the issue of customer-sensitive bottom-line-centric business models is part of any 101 course. The concept of a true customer-centric business model is a marketing sham; don't believe it. Customer senitivity does not mean the customer is always right. They are often wrong, and any manager will be happy to take you aside, privately,and make that clear if you become a liability to their bottom line.


this is the nature of competitive marketing.
If enough customers are happy enough with my product to keep my business afloat, I am happy.
If I am not happy with my business, or if I do not have enough customers, I need to find out why. If it is because I do not offer an option that is industry standard among other merchants, I am not being competitive now am I?
But if I cut my own throat and GIVE my product to someone who can then undercut me, am I being competitive? Or even intelligent?
Again, why should I even bother to spend the time to create things in a business sense if my efforts will not benefit me in some way?
If I am creating things to sell, I am doing so for the purpose of making money; if I can't make the money I need to make it worth my while, then I am not going to bother.
Dupers directly impact my bottom line by impacting my product lifespan and artificially forcing the reduction in pricepoint. If there were no dupers, I would be perfectly happy giving you the mod permission you need at a very reasonable price. My general policy is and has always been to give mod/copy/no xfer on wearables; however, the advent of the mirror script has changed that stance with regards to wearable objects (Prim based Avatars, attachments and jewelry).



And your L$ are likely to go to whomever is able to offer you what you want at the lowest price you can find. That would be the dupers.


It is my sincere hope that you are able to continue to find good, quality craftsmanship at a reasonable priceas we move into the future.



Thank you for the discussion. I hope you understand the reasons behind our stance.
May the merchants you find be ever willing to give you what you seek.