Avatar sex detection.

Strangely I would have less problems with a scripting function to detect if you were wearing a skirt or not and offer closed leg v open leg postures - even some of the decent legs apart postures look very odd if you're in a skirt (or kilt I suspect) because of the way the mesh gets stretched.

We can't do that either - no scripting access to clothes although there's at least one proposal asking for such things.

I do appreciate the hypothetical get gender could be used for perfectly legitimate, reasonable and completely acceptable uses. But it's much more obviously possible to use it for less reasonable ones that say llTeleportAgentHome() which has regardless of that been used in such a fashion that it regularly crashes clients so although there are times that it could be used I'd still oppose it.

OK, I guess I should have thought through a little more of how people would twist my question and turn it into about being something it is not and I'll ask it in more like what I'm using this sex detector for...

I had no intention of using the function for cuddling, or for sex positions or anything else like that. Maybe I should have called it a skirt detector. I just wanted to be sure that when people sat on my chairs or couch, whatever, that if they wore a skirt, or kilt, they didn't sit with their junk showing by sitting with their legs open. I just assumed that women, whether lesbian or not, don't want to sit without crossing legs while possibly wearing a skirt.

I'm sorry this all turned out the way it did, yikes..

My male sit is sitting with a leg in the air, crossed at one ankle over the other leg. A woman in a skirt don't want to sit that way. My female animation is crossed with legs crossed at the knees. Even men sit that way sometimes. I thought a sex detect would help do one or the other, but I should have just detected a skirt or not.

In that case, you don't have the issue of "if one person picks the male pose then the other person has to be given the female pose or the animation won't work" issue. Your solution is pretty simple - every time someone sits down, ask them if they want the legs open or legs closed pose (you'd probably word it better than that). Don't ask them if they're male or female, maybe even don't ask them if they're wearing a skirt or not, just ask them how they'd prefer to be seated. And then play the right animation based on their response. That should be pretty easy to do.

I have to say that I think that this thread has really missed the point. OK... I understand that not everybody fits neatly into one of the two standard 'boxes'. I understand that many people resent being arbitrarily forced into a gender specific role. As part of a FF couple in Second Life I feel that way myself at times BUT...

Most people DO feel comfortable being identified as Male or Female. Yes, there are lots of complexities and 'Female/Bi/D/s' describes me a lot better, but I am pretty comfortable with just 'Female'. Wouldn't a 'Male / Female / None of Your Business' selection meet most of the objections raised here? I want this function... I can think of lots of uses. And I think the vast majority of people in Second Life would have no real objection. As long as you are not forced to choose one or the other, I just don't see the harm.

Heh, the vast majority of people in America dont want same-sex couples having the same rights as they do, does that make their opinion correct? Depending upon how you want to look, you are forced to pick one or the other, the skeletons of the avatar are different depending upon what gender you choose in appearence mode. If appearence mode gender didnt affect the sliders you are able to select, then Id agree with you.
==Chris

* channels Gilda Radner and Jane Curtin... *

Emily Litella: [bespectacled little old lady with squeaky voice] What's all this fuss I keep hearing about "Aviator Sex Detection"? Now, don't those kind of people have a right to privacy like the rest of us! I mean, next you'll be having Accountant Sex Detection, Barkeeper Sex Detection, and Cartographer Sex Detection. It's a disgrace! Mean Detectives arrest little Aviators and put them in jail in the wrong neighborhood so they can't even play with their little Aviator friends. Who will take care of their airplanes? Who will fly us between cities? The United States should be giving money to charity instead of spending money on programs like this!

Jane Curtin: EMILY!

Emily Litella: What??

Jane Curtin: That’s not AVIATOR sex detection, it's AVATAR sex detection, and it's not about if they're HAVING sex, it's about what GENDER they are!

Emily Litella: [pauses] Ohhh. Well that’s different, then. That’s very different! [smiles into the camera] ... Never mind!

Some community's have HUD's or tags that you wear for various reasons.

Someone would have to define a standard and distribute the items.

We also need a Wiki page listing the chat channel numbers for common protocols to reduce the chances that different products conflict.

Just look back at all the posts... just talking about it sparked all this political debate, and for no reason. Couldnt scripters base poses on the return? If male/female, one pose/pose set, if gay, another, if lesbian, yet another? Sure it could be done that way, but it's not because all the gay/lesbians in the forum here jump down everyone's throat because someone suggested wanting to know the gender of an avatar. Unfortunately, we live in a world where some people are unhappy with their gender, and consider it offensive for someone to want to know. Personally, I'm a male, and I have no issue with anyone knowing that. So, to the original poster, it's most likely the types of responses that this thread generated that keeps llGetAvatarGender(); from being created, besides that, all avatars are genderless. I could name my avatar "Pat" for the first name, and then, if I wanted to be male, simple wear male, clothing, skin, shape, etc., or if I wanted to be female, same deal. So how would u define gender in SL? One more thing, all accounts created to date have no gender specified (beyond the initial shape chosen) as far as I can tell. Either way, look at the responses, and the anger, and verbal attacks at simply SUGGESTING there be a way to determine gender, and you have your answer as to why there is not.

Hetero Who rolls?
wtf is that, obviously I am not ejucaded
lmao
seriously good point though, The poses should just be made for 2 avis and try to be general so all can enjoy.

besides animations are overrated anyway. they are limited in scope, rarely fit the avi and your imagination is tronger anyway

I'm not able to back my suggestions up with LSL code, but what if someone created a prim that could be widely distributed, a kind of standardized gender toggle, hmm, maybe with several settings - I can think of M, F, Neutral, but one could go further no doubt. Then the Poseballs are modified to query whether a person carries such a genderToggle . If not, or not set, then query on choice, but if set, automatically assign the pose. Maybe poseballs could give out the genderToggle. Because it is optional, that would address some of the issues raised.

Is this silly? Or just not done in SL? I'm too new to know.

After reading through all these posts, my only .02L$ I have to add is...

There is no bit or field in the actual Avatar or Agent which records gender. The data is simply not there to be read.

The male / female toggle is stored in avatar shapes and the only reason it is there is because the two shapes offer different shape slider options. I know it's 'splitting hairs' or whatever, but it is, I think, an important distinction. Because avatars can change shape at the drop of a hat.

And just like scripts can't access any other attachment that an avatar is wearing, I'm not surprised in the least that scripts can't access the shape either.

-Atashi

But people could wear an object that, just like the lockmister cuffs or the "capture damage tag", would have a listen that would respond to queries.

protocols need to be thought out and well defined based on worst case conditions.

I would suggest something simple.

Command to device =
[reserved for echo][pipe][command][pipe][avitarname] or [avitarKey]

The reply would contain a response command and the avatar name and key to keep things straight when multiple devices do a request at the same time.

I am not in-world and the wiki is off-line so I can't spell the commands exactly.

Worn script...

string m_OwnerName; //set in start or OnRez
string m_OwnerKey;  //set in start or OnRez
string m_OwnerGender = "Yes, always";

ReplyGender(string echoStr){
	string str;
	str = echoStr;  //echo control or packet number
	str += "|"; 
	str += "AvitarGenderResponse|";  //response command
	str += m_OwnerName;
	str += "|";
	str += m_OwnerKey;
	str += "|";
	str += m_OwnerGender;

};// ReplyGender(){

listen...
 	parseKeepNulls...
 	if (llList2String(...) == "AvitarGenderGetByName") {
		if (llList2String(...) == m_OwnerName){
			ReplyGender(llList2String(0));
		}; //name
	}else if (llList2String(...) == "AvitarGenderGetByKey") {
		if ((Key)llList2String(...) == m_OwnerKey){
			ReplyGender(llList2String(0));
		}; //name
	};//command

};//Listen

I have sorely missed the lack of a get_gender function, for a most elementary and legitimate reason that astonishingly, no-one has mentioned.

Forget poseballs.

Forget skirts.

I just want to know if I should have an object chat "<name> pushes with all his might" or "<name> pushes with all her might". Without the missing function, the script can't tell which to use. And the circumlocution "<name> pushes with all their might" is frequently awkward and ugly - it sounds like there are two people involved.

This is EXACTLY why I want this feature. I have an all women's club, no men allowed. The only way I can keep male's out is to go group only. This sucks because people have to go through the process of becoming a member when this is only possible when I or an officer is online which is not often.

One would think NO MEN ALLOWED in the title of my land and the HUGE sign at the entrance would be enough. However this is not the case. Trying to make a place for women to come and relax without a bunch of naked guys with huge cocks asking "wanna have some fun" should not be so hard.

The problem is that the female appearance setting doesn't guarantee a female avatar. It could be a male furry/robot prim avatar that happens to use a female base shape for instance. Or it could just be a male avatar made up with the female appearance settings - I think it's perfectly possible as long as you don't want facial hair (in fact the actual male avatar is defined within SL as a variant on the female one - that's why everyone, even guys, resets to Ruth if something goes wrong with their shape)

Another issue is about language. Many languages are more gender specific than English. Perhaps of SL had been developed by a francophone or a hispanophone (etc.) it would have had some gender function from the beginning

I'd like to introduce a simplified perspective on this: all I'm really interested in hearing from an avatar is their initial choice in biological platform for anatomy, and though I can be pretty flexible satisfying whatever an individual wishes to do with that anatomy, someone with a confused sexuality is going to be equally confused in any of the interactive animations I make.

A simple male/female toggle in the body shape is all I'm really interested in getting from a query gender function. I don't mind being completely insensitive to any social implications or gender identity issues, because I think there's a pretty good market of people who either don't have such issues, or don't feel the need to make noise about them. The rest will get as much design consideration as an avatar with ovaries in their elbows or testicles on their chins.

*boggles* The differences between races are not imaginary... they are every bit as "physical" as gender. When I perceive a certain shade of skin or type of hair it is not my imagination, that hair and skin is literally physically different. As well there are certain internal and external structural differences.

Basically both gender and race are gross oversimplifications of a whole host of physical, psychological, and emotional factors... most of which are usually not relevant to the situations they are applied to, hence prejudice and discrimination.

SL is a world where the user is granted a high degree of freedom to choose how they wish to define themselves, or even whether or not to do so. Yes you do have to make choices at account creation, but largely you are not stuck with them. (THANK GOD! Imagine being stuck with a noob AV forever?!)

Having said that I am 100% for a GetGender() function… but if you are simply getting the gender of the currently worn shape then I warn you that this function will be very inappropriate a lot of the time.

The reason is the choice of gender for shape is purely aesthetic, and thus is often either ignored or used specifically for aesthetic and not gender related reasons. A prime example of this is child AV’s. Nearly all child shapes are female, even for boys, because small male shapes do funky things. But a great many children would be rather annoyed being forced to be considered female by a script.

There are also people playing females but RPing being disguised as male.

Along with the many other examples of where this simple deterministic will fail… and spectacularly… possibly offending the user.

Personally, I would FAR prefer a profile option with [Male, Female, Unspecified] for options if we’re to get a GetGender function, and just leave the shape completely out of it.

Also keep in mind, people can and do change their gender on a whim in SL… I will not support being permanently tied to a gender of any kind at account creation… it’s unnecessarily restrictive.

I’m behind the idea of a standardized protocol for querying AV’s via a user configured prim as long as it doesn’t add too much to server load. It could actually be quite useful for far more than just gender, as well.

And in case you think, ‘naw all that’s rare’, I’ll just mention how it would affect me personally. I’m in a F/F relationship. I have a little brother who wears a female shape but is a boy. Said little brother is also quite feminine and may choose at some point to be addressed as a female, although there would be little to no change in his AV. I’m friends with a shape changing hermaphrodite. My adopted father also has a female AV. My best friend usually plays a female thief in Gor sims disguised as a man. I could probably go on. I don’t even know all that many people, and these are just a few examples where simply querying the shape will futz with people.

So, let’s not take something heretofore purely aesthetic and assign it some additional significance, shall we? That’s just too arbitrary.

PS. Re to artist… As an “artist” you’re free to offend me, but frankly not allowing me to sit like a man on your furniture if I feel like it is rather offensive to me. If it’s either I can’t sit on your stuff because I’m female or you won’t make it, then I’m kinda glad you can’t script it… Artists certainly are allowed to create whatever they want, but at some point you have to give up control and let individuals enjoy your work in their own and possibly unforeseen ways. I’m sure most RL designers don’t intend for their women’s apparel to be worn by men, but imagine if there was a way for the clothes to refuse to be worn by men and the legal issues that would raise.

PPS. Re to women’s club… Although the intent is legitimate, (to provide a safe haven for women), I will say that excluding people based on gender rather than behavior is just as discriminatory whether it’s men or women.

Um… The problem is not that we are confused about our sexuality… it is that you are. Nor do we necessarily have “issues”. We are just people who play the game differently than you do, and there are enough of us that being inclusive to this segment of the SL community is a pretty good idea… but you go right on being as insensitive as you like. I don’t really care all that much.

And frankly… ovaries in their elbows? For the most part we are not nearly so weird as you seem to think. There are F/F and M/M relationships, cross dressers (including disguises), child AV’s, ambiguous AV’s (robots ect), Androgynous and Intergendered AV’s, ect… And no… there’s nothing wrong with us, so why give us second class treatment?

“Simplified” isn’t the adjective I would use to describe the perspective you espoused.

You quoted me and misheard me within the same post and you're calling me confused? What I originally said, "someone with a confused sexuality" neither states nor implies anything further than that. I really don't want to be inside your head, so I just assess the practical behavior. And in this case, your practical behavior appears to be a strident attempt to interpret what I actually said into something that you can air an opinion on 'issues' that you may or may not personally have.

If I thought you were weird, I would give you that compliment. But I won't compliment someone who cries, "I want to be different and accomodated!" I don't believe you're wearing ovaries on your elbows or testicles on chins, but those do illustrate the countless other permutations that I just simply can't give special treatment. But that's alright, because you have support groups for your cries for attention while the ones who aren't taking themselves so seriously are having fun.

Lemme be plain then I'mma drop it.

I do not have a "confused sexuality", I understand my sexuality perfectly. It may not be the same as yours, but it is neither pathalogical nor unnatural, and it is certainly not confused. I'm just saying that is a poor choice of of wording on your part. You could have even gone so far as to say abnormal, (though even that is debateable) but confused? please...

I'm not begging for attention, but hell yes I want to be accomodated, and I want everybody else to be accomodated and included as well. Another word for it is "tolerance". A better one might be "civilized".

It is both unnecessary and hurtful to try to cram everyone into a binary equation. On the question of gender identity I don't think it too much to ask to have the choices of [Male, Female, Unspecified]. (I use unspecified rather than "other" because "other" implies neither, while "unspecified" simply leaves it unstated. There are those who may identify themselves personally as male or female but don't want to broadcast it.)

The basic idea is right now in SL we have the freedom that comes with ambiguity, you can choose to identify or not. I like that freedom, and not just for myself.

And if you do not have a confused sexuality, then I was plainly not addressing you. By 'confused sexuality' I'm not recognizing any social gender labels or orientation, I'm talking about people who can't be sure whether they have a plug or a socket at any given point in time. As I said above I can be plenty flexible about anatomy, and I don't much care whether they have a plug or socket outside the scope of their intimate interaction, and hardly make much distinction who's plugs or sockets are making the contact during; I'll encourage it all.

The self-labels that degenerate into infinite niches do not concern me, all I need is for someone to make that one biological choice in that moment, and I'd be happy with the results that a check of their body shape would return as an indication of the gratification behavior they would indulge in.

So please re-read that entire paragraph and decide what you have to kneejerk over.

I don't care if it ia man behind the computer with a fermale avatar. That is the whole point of SL is to become who you want. As long as they are good at being a female in SL that is all that I require.

And I don't think it's a big deal that if someone has an avatar that's technically female, a script should refer to them as "she", and if technically male, then "he".

There have been some good ideas in this topic but quite a lot of strife. Intolerant statements about race & sexual preference have been made; such actions are not permitted under the Community Standards.

The score is this:
Some people say no and others yes. The feature suggestion straddles a topic touched on in the Community Standards. It's a hotbed issue or it wouldn't be in the Community Standards. Feature Suggestions so rooted in controversial issues don't get implemented unless there is some way to make the problems go away (or LL has a mental lapse).