Just a little question...

A bit unusual for me to be asking a question on this board, but I should like to ask other animators out there if they have ever been asked to copy someone else's animation?

Has this ever happened to you and, if so, how did you deal with what is effectively a request for plagiarism?

How is it a request for plagiarism?

No one holds a copyright for an SL avatar animation.

ANYONE can move the limbs of an avatar in any way shape or form their animator software allows and upload it into SL and if it is a copy of what someone else did so what.

Sine Wave does not hold a copyright for any of the dances they do. Heck, if i had a MoCap system there are a few dances I would Cap myself doing that I saw at Sine Wave and there is nothing that can be done about it. It is a dance, anyone can do it if they have skills to dance and the equipment to MoCap it.

Just because someone else did it first does not mean you cannot reproduce your own version for better or worse.

heck, I have seen items made that i liked and went and made my own version of it for myself. Why not? I have the skills, i have no obligation to buy a pierce set from some maker just because they did it first when i can just look at it and reproduce it on my own.

Reproduce it if you have the skills to do it. It is your right.

It just seems unprofessional to me to deliberately copy someone else's ideas - gaining inspiration from someone else's work is one thing - but deliberately setting out to make a copy is another. (Depends a bit on the type of animation though, as somethings cannot help but look quite similar.)

Welcome to SL i guess.

Why buy something that you see in SL from a vendor if you can make it yourself?

I am a big time consumer in SL. But sometimes, somethings need done yourself. Or sometimes content makers produce items for prices that are totally unacceptable - at which point, i do not buy it, I make it myself, or go without.

But an animation? Forget it. If you can make it and do not want to pay someone else for their version, make it yourself.

To deliberately make a copy of someone else objects to sell is wrong.

To deliberately make a copy - BY YOUR OWN SKILLS - of someone's item to keep for yourself, go for it. Why buy it? Just because they built it?

If the world worked that way then there would be only 1 maker of everything. 1 car maker, 1 phone maker, etc...

People copy...especially copy ideas. And this is SL where originality is hard to come by these days and trailblazing is non existent.

I haven't been asked, but I would worry about it more than Briana does. Not necessarily only because of ethical problems, but also because I would fear the reaction of my customers who might be familiar with the original. I don't want to get a reputation as the creator of cheap knock-offs.

Is that all you can do?

A cheap knock off?

You could not make it better? If not, then do not do it, and for heaven's sake do not do it and then sell it because then you for sure would look like a maker of a cheap knock off.

That is the silliest thing i heard of.

So, if i run across a pierce set that i like in SL, i should buy it? Or if i have the skill, should i make it myself?

Why would i be obligated to buy something that someone else made when i can make it myself just because they made it first?

Why would i not make something similar to an item made by someone else just because that someone made it first? I have a right to make my own version, right?

What do you call all the skin makers after Chip Midnight? Copy Cat Knock Off artists? In fact, Chip wasn't the first skin maker in SL. Just the first commercial maker - so what does that make Chip?

Rez-Faux came into existence AFTER Rez-Foo and we all know what FAUX stands for, right?

Should the maker of the rez-faux not have made it because the Rez-Foo already existed?

Anti, what you are saying does not make sense.

Have you ever been to Pillow Talk? Does she have a copyright over all those different style animations she made? The poses are not original, they are copies of real life. Does this mean that no one else in SL should make an animation with a person sitting down with the left leg tucked under them and the body turned at 1/4 angle?

Whatever.

Well if you travel the grid making copies of peoples works to sell yourself. Yes, that is beyond unprofessional.

But if you travel the grid, and see mediocre items that you can reproduce at a higher quality level and sell. Then by all means, do it.

And if you can travel the grid and find lots of items that you like that you can make yourself, then by all means do it.

No one is obligated to NOT make an item because someone else did it first. And if that is how things worked in SL, then 99% of all resident content makers are knock off artists.

You're not under any obligation to take on their request. If it turns you off for any reason, say no..

Geeze Briana I don't know what I said to deserve that rant, and you apparently don't even understand the question, since what the OP asked was "should I make a copy for someone who asked me to", NOT:

- should I make my own interpretation
- should I make something better
- should I make one for myself
- should I make an animation at all, since omg someone else made one first

the answer to any of those question being, of course, yes. So yeah, all you proved is 1) you weren't paying attention, or 2) starting a bunch of drama is more important.


Oh noes I guess I got served.

That wasn't a rant, Anti, it was perfectly sound advice. The only factor in copying that is reprehensible is where you literally copy someone else's work without permission, ie: rip it off.

If Deira accepted the commission for whatever reasons of her own, I hazard a guess she wouldn't be able to resist improving the idea in her own way. She could easily side-step professional ridicule with a comment such as "After 'Whatever' by So-and-So" in the description box for example but that would be entirely up to her. Even if she wasn't successful in improving on the original, her work would still be inarguably her own because she put effort into it.

Besides, it is extremely unlikely that she would ever achieve an exact digital copy of the animation in question and leave herself open to a DMCA if she has only the visual reference to go on.

Thanks for your comments guys and gals - I guess I just feel very uneasy about this customer's intentions. Whilst immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I know I would feel very cross if someone deliberately copied my work. Working within a certain genre seems right - but copying? Well, forgery is too strong a word - but plagiarism came into my mind.

I was really just wondering if this was an odd occurence or whether others had similar experiences, and also whether there was a sort-of professional code of conduct that tended to be applied.

I quite regularly make direct suggestions for improved versions of existing work to animators of my acquaintance. I have no compunction in doing so where the originals are badly made or flawed in some way despite the overall quality of the pose (bad or non-existent lead-in/lead-out is a common technical flaw). I don't see an issue with that because I will not buy the originals otherwise.

I consider a better example of something an improvement not a copy and certainly if I can do better myself then I will not hesitate.

No one has serious grounds for complaint if you make a better version of the same idea. Certainly in the case of animation, there is no copyright on posture and movement and choice is always a good thing for customers.

Am I right in thinking you wouldn't be at all interested if the individual who approached you wants an exact copy? Otherwise, would they be happy if you suggested making an improved version with perhaps some unique twist of your own?

Huh?

Wow....I was just talking. Not a rant.

The only drama is your reaction, which is a little aggressive.

Thank you Ephraim.

I am glad you saw my post for what it was and did not read anything personal into it.

I understand where you are coming from Ephraim. It is the intention that has me concerned. ....make a close copy of animator X's work and give it to me with full perms, and I will do something in return for you...

No - I'm not at all happy about that!

Anyway I think this is a bit borderline for the purpose of this discussion board - thanks again all.

Sure Briana gives some sound advice, but the way she quoted me and then came back with "is that all you can do?" and "Anti what you are saying does not make sense" and "whatever" made it look like it was all directed at me and there was some personal animosity involved. And all those examples/situations were not anything close to what I was talking about; maybe that just means I should have been clearer originally. I never questioned anything but making what amounts to a copy for personal gain, the rest of that is of course part of innovation and progress.

Sorry if I overreacted, and especially sorry for being a part of getting this interesting thread off track.

I read it as a list of thoughts rattled off the top of her head - thinking out loud kind of thing. Having had a few sharp words from Brianna in recent months - deservedly I guess - I certainly wouldn't confuse the tone with her having a go at you.

I did not mean to sound like that Anti. It was more meant as a challenge when i said "is that all you can do", because I am sure you would not limit yourself to being only able to make a cheap knock off of something.

Maybe i did lose the direction of what the OP wanted because I felt like it was a direct challenge to the "freedom of creation" that i believe should always exist in SL so i started prattling off a bunch of examples and sort of forgot that she was talking about someone commissioning an item to be an exact copy of something that already exists. In which case, the person making the request should just go to the original artist that made the thing they like and offer them a butt load of cashola for a version with the proper perms.

I would not take a commission to build a furniture set that was an exact replica of another set (minus textures) just because they wanted a set like that but with our scripting system. I would offer to build them something that was my own creative twist on what they were after.

And the "whatever" was more like a 'shrug of the shoulders' as if to say "well ok if you think that so be it'". Unfortunately a single line with the word "whatever" can look rather sardonic or sarcastic unintentionally, and that definitely was not my intent.

Well if i may step in with my 2 cents...
Taking into consideration that anims in sl are quite expensive, well decent one i guess, which comes from the fact that making them to look realistic is major pain in the back. Unless you have mocap rig at home (which i highly doubt anyone here have) making them by hand even in high end animation software is pretty hard without decent knowledge regarding them. Now, there are more than few anim makers out there that rate their anims way too much. E.g. i saw full perms sitting anims that are no longer than 30-60 frames for obscene ammount of money(well at least for me that is). So, no i would not buy it, i would go out and and make my own anim. Yes, it will take some time, but it will be mine and would save me xxx-10 L for uploading them.
As of "rip-offs" as you call it... Frankly, i think there is no way that you 1:1 copy somebody anim. First, you cannot access raw data from SL to "rip-it" back to RL, as you could do with textures, and secondly, if you try to make it by eye, you simply cannot do it, as i think there are way too many combinations in skeleton to "replicate" animation.
What im trying to say is that ppl should build their stuff without taking this stuff into consideration. E.g. how many "kill-them-all-in-all-possible-ways" huds there is out there? Dozen. How many scripted M-16 rifles are out there? Dozen. How many clothing is out there? Dozen. And how many of those are high quality? Just a few. In my oppinion, there isnt ripp of if you actually made it yourself from scratch. Yes, you used xyz's anim for reference, and made your own. I mean, does that means that Ubuntu linux is rip-off from e.g. Mandrake? Nope, its not. People make things in real life because they think they can do it better than competition. I mean, just turn arround you. Monitors, sound systems, TV's, cars, clothes all have dozen of manufacturers. Does that means they rip the guy who first invented them? Nope, they all want part of cookie in their own way. And each of them have something that its "genuine" theirs. If you build your anim and use somebodys else anim as reference, fact that its not 1:1 copy make it genuine to you. I mean, seriously guys, as somebody said, if somebody make anim for gun holding with stretched arm, does that mean that i cannot do mine like that? Im i stealing their idea? Maybe it wasnt their idea in the first place? Maybe they saw it in movie and remake bvh out of it.
And finaly, there is quite few people out there that simply dont like buying stuff. Not because they are expensive, its just the fact that (speaking for myself here) i would rather make my own version, knowing its unique, than spend 200-300L for buying it. Yes, 200-300L prolly isnt worth of effort, but like i said, its matter of above principle.
So in my humble oppinion, there is no such thing as "rip-off" unles you end up with quality product at the end (anim, linkset, texture, whatever) if you made it yourself.

I guess a lot of it depends on the circumstances, in my opinion. I would never, ever copy anyone's .bvh file somehow in any way for any reason or for any amount of linden or real money, but if there is an animation someone likes and is unable purchase with the permissions they need for something they are creating, I don't really see a a problem in recreating something similiar.

I am also a builder, and it's not uncommon for someone to come to me with a picture and ask me to reproduce it. If they ask me to reproduce the Golden Dome of Notre Dame, am I stealing Notre Dame? Not hardly. Will my build be exactly like it? Probably not. Is there anything wrong with someone wanting Notre Dame for their sim? Not really.

I think you have to follow your own path and heed to your own conscience, though, in the end. It's you who has to look your virtual avatar in the face in the mirror/monitor when it's all said and done. But I think if your version is a little different, and you don't try to benefit from the original artists' name or fame, I think you're probably all right in most cases.

Just my two cents...

~Moonshy Littlething
PrimShy Designs

Yay, a warm fuzzy thread again!

Briana, I'll remember not to jump to conclusions down the line when you're posting something you feel strongly about. If Ephraim is to be believed, there won't be any doubt if you really decide I deserve the internet smackdown

Sorry about the confusion this time.

And I really do agree with pretty much everything that's been said about innovation and improvements and how nobody has an exclusive right to do particular types of animations and other content.

When I made my "cheap knockoff" comment I had in mind a situation like, if someone were to approach me and say "can you make me something like Lovescene so I can sell it in my beds, because Bits and Bobs doesn't sell those copiable and I would rule SL if I had one of those". I'd have a hard time blatantly copying a sort of iconic work of art like that (even if I were confident in my ability to do it well). But I would have no problem doing something in a very similar theme, if I could proudly say it was my own. I probably wouldn't sell it copiable though, cuz I'm a greedy capitalist that way

Don't worry about the confusion Anti. Posters here often seem to me to be like bombers droning around a target and never able to hit it! I do appreciate everyone's comments though, and not jumping to conclusions feels very good advice. Perhaps the indivdual involved here simply did not realise how this request might sound to me.

Don't undermine your ability Anti - I should like to emulate the sensitivity I see in your work - but not "copy" it!

QFT Briana! If that's what they wanted, why not buy it in the first place! Money can always be an issue though.

Thanks for all your comments, Wakizashi.

Although animations cannot be downloaded directly from the SL client, there is software available which can extract full permission animations from SL - they can then be re-uploaded and will then no longer have the original creators name on them. (Just posting this because people need to be aware of it.)