BDSM Vs Gorean

I'm curious, but not curious enough to spend lots of time investigating. What is the difference between Gorean and BDSM?

How much time do you have? I'd suggest reading a Wiki or two.

As Brenda said, a conversation of this type could take a long time.

Unlike many others, I had no BDSM, D/s, etc. background nor any real knowledge of it when I found the first online Gorean community now almost 13 years ago due to research I was conducting for a Human Sexuality course required for my grad degree. I am very glad I did not as I could view the Gorean philosophy as set out by John Norman aka Professor John Lange in his Gorean novel series. And yes, there is a philosophy amongst the sex and adventure scenes.

Many people who become involved in Gor come from a BDSM or D/s background and bring that thinking with them. The man who happened into my online IRC Gorean home and invited me to SL has taught D/s and BDSM practices RL for years and teaches these in a "Gorean" sim. He and I have had MANY long discussions on "Why Gor is NOT BDSM or D/s." (Note, he, like many others had not read one Gorean novel and got most of his "Gorean" info from websites written by people, many of whom have not read the novels either and are just passing down misinformation they received.)

This man now understands the difference and often consults me when he needs to know a Gorean reference for something he teaches and/or sends people to me who have a true interest in this.

Since many of these threads turn into a huge brewhaha, I will say this:

*There is a quote in one of Norman's books that actually calls BDSM an "earth sickness" that does not exist on Gor due to the lack of sexual repression in that area. (I have the book and page number in SL, will edit to add it when I go in world.)

*If you, or anyone, has a sincere interest in Gor, although I no longer am involved with it actively, I am willing to answer questions via PM or in world chat.

EDIT TO ADD: Rose, you or anyone interested in this issue or anything relating to Gor I would refer to the sim A^Turian^Gate in SL and speak primarily with Rsvp Villota. He is literally a walking compendium of anything Gorean and his primary interest is in discussing the novels. This sim is completely safe...no forced anything. You may tell whomever you encounter that Czari referred you there.

Gorean is a very specific setup, based on a 30 to 40 year old series of pulp fiction books by John Norman. The only real thing it has in common with most of the rest of the BDSM area is girls as sex slaves, wearing collars, doing what Master orders them to do for his pleasure. If you are female, have no sense of self-worth, and VERY submissive, or if you are male and love the idea of having submissive females at your beck and call, I suppose it has some merits. As a rather dominant woman with a sense of self-worth, Gorean stuff is definitely not for me. But if it floats your boat... *shrugs* I am on good terms with most of the Gorans I have met, but it isn't the way I want to play. (For what it's worth, I actually did read the first dozen or so John Norman novels when they were first published, in the 70's and 80's. I kept hoping it would improve, as the concept had some potential. It didn't, in my opinion. Nor did I ever find myself wanting to roleplay as a Gorean slave. To me, it was just pulp fiction, that happened to have some kinky aspects to it.)

Most BDSM people look down on Gorean stuff as a very shallow take on the slave/master relationship. BDSM is usually a consentual power-sharing roleplay between two or more people. The "slave" can always stop a "scene" if things are going badly. Though the roleplay is one where the slave gives the Master control of their actions, the slave almost always retains the right to call a halt to the game. And there are as many different flavors of relationships as there are people. Some are into pain or humiliation. Some are actually a loving and cherished relationship, with no pain or SM aspect at all. (Also for what it is worth, I didn't seriously look at any aspect of BDSM until I encountered the practice in SL. Knew it existed, but didn't try to understand it until I knew friends who were into such games. Since then, I've read a lot on the topic, and have discussed it with quite a few people experienced both in RL and in on-line roleplay of BDSM.)

I would suggect that you do a Google search on the terms "BDSM" , "BD/SM", "Bondage", "Gor", "Gorean" and "John Norman". (The last is the author of the Gor novels.) And definiitely do NOT try googling such topics from your work location, unless you want to get fired for surfing porn sites at work. Be prepared to do a LOT of reading. It is not a topic that can seriously be explained in just a few paragraphs.

Not only that but those threads usually turn into epic entertainment, and I'm going away for a week and wouldn't want to miss it.

Wow! Thank you, Czari, for sharing your knowledge on the subject. I may IM you in SL. Or maybe check out the wiki. I'm interested in the oddness that is humanity, and the BDSM, Gor, and D/S subcultures seem to be some of the strangest.

Thank you, Ceera.

Could I just jump in here and say that Gor RP isn't just about Masters and their slaves, there are many charactor roles including for females, just the slaves obviously stand out more to those casual viewers due the nature of it.

SL Gor varies from the strict BTB cities to the female mercs raiding to the panther girls capturing men.

Here's why I can't be arsed with the whole debate I guess. There are people out there who will hector non-Goreans for being "less" than them for this exact reason. Uh ... dude ... I hate to tell you this but in any world there's only one moon up there and I could probably kick your butt every time in terms of free flowing power exchange.

More to the point I could do it on my knees at the feet of the one I love. LOL.

Most people just do their thing and that's fine on both sides, but keep the perspective please people.

OK as a devil's advocate point of view Rose:

Most "BDSM" builds are miserable dark red and black places. If they aren't the typical "dungeon" then they don't work - even if people rail against the monotony of colour and approach that seems to be it (tho I had a place in neutral tones that did REALLY well till the day I caught an underage av in there and thought "sod it" and closed it down).

However, most Gorean builds tend to be extremely beautiful, very ethereal, very pretty and feminine with a hint of wildman. I love Gorean sims even if I have no interest in Gor whatsoever.

And thus lies another major difference in the two.

On Gor - there is no "scening." Anything like flogging or binding or similar BDSM activities are not for a slave's pleasure/enjoyment. It would be punishment and girls want to avoid that at all costs. (In the Gorean home I came from, if it became apparent a girl "acted out" because she "wanted" punishment - this difference was explained to her and if it continued thereafter we told her what she was seeking was BDSM and not Gor.)

Now the really confusing thing to most people, especially those just encountering Gor in SL, is that it has been bastardized in most sims to be a confusing blend of BDSM or D/s with some Gorean phrases sprinkled in. To those of us who have read the novels and enjoy Gorean role play (another difference because there is NO such planet as Gor), it is annoying, therefore the "old guard Goreans" who came over from IRC largely keep to themselves.

Over the years on IRC I have been to many discussions where a BDSM channel invited the IRC founders of online Gor over for a question/answer session which essentially turned into a "let's all bash Gor" fest, therefore these two men finally began refusing further requests.

I truly don't understand why each group can't just live and let live in this respect.

NOTE: I want to go on record as personally opposing any of the forced role play aspects. Most of the sims who do such have notecards and warnings prior to entering the sim which are well worth reading if one does wish to enter. Those who enjoy this type of role play, I don't deny their right to do so. By the same token, I will personally not visit those sims.

Anyone wishing to investigate Gor in a safe environment, I can recommend the sims: A^Turian^Gate, Iaomai, and a new sim, Piedmont which was founded by a group of people from Iaomai. Iaomai is a training sim and Piedmont is a Gorean City.

/me has an epiphany

So the term "panther" for older women who date younger men actually came from Gorean literature? Or is it vice-versa?

Cherry, a question for you, since you are familiar with the sim in which I had a brush with a load of bull
You would consider this sim BDSM as opposed to just D/S, wouldn't you? There were the bondage elements of collar and cuffs, scripted so that the master could discipline the slave.

Hey, Cherry You posted before I posted this later on:



So we're on the same page here




That is one of the aspects, besides the philosophy that kept me involved in Gor long after my research, which turned into my Master's thesis, was completed. I love the beauty and "pageantry." I'm pleased in one aspect of SL Gor - some sims are breaking out of the "Paga Tavern" setting and utilizing the various cultures within the Gor novels that Norman based on cultures...past and present - most of the cities in Gor are based on either Rome or Greece with slavery behind part of the financial economy. But each novel is based in a different locale and includes places/races such as: the ancient Vikings, Eskimos, Arabian desert, the Amazon jungle, medieval type peasants eking out livings on the land, etc.

The Master/slave aspect of Gor honestly holds no interest for me as I have no interest in D/s, BDSM.

(Many find my involvement in Gor unusual...but as the old guard always tried to tell people - Gor is NOT about the sexxies. Well they said it in a more pointed fashion...lol. But so many think "Gor! Woo Hoo, free sex! And I can boss women around. Which is sadly the case too often in too many sims. *sighs*)

Dove, my alt is in Gor, a free woman. If you like I am happy to show you around the different sides of it.

Neither.

Panther girls in the novels were generally Free Women (meaning, not slaves) who ran away to escaped arranged marriages or some other reason. These women lived in the forests and were expert hunters, foragers, etc.

I'm not as up on the intricate Gorean details as I used to be...but there were tribes of these women in the Northern Forests and others in the South. One were called Panthers and the others Talunas. I just can't recall which are which now.

For anyone interested in this topic...I would refer you to a woman in SL named Sas Shi - the head of a Panther tribe and one of the most intelligent women I have met. She is currently completing work on her doctorate on the subject of feminism (or something similar).

Panthers/Talunas are also runaway slaves living in the woods. Panthers in the north, Taluna in the south.

I'd consider it to be a slave auction sim honey. It has nowt to do with my experiences online or off (and the majority of my experience *is* offline).

Usually when there are "slave auctions" online it tends to be a bit of fun (might turn into some sexy fun but that's between the people concerned).

I'd say this is commercial exploitation of people who are looking for something that they find hard to find otherwise.

Again, a devil's advocate: some people REALLY get off on the idea of being bought and sold.

I'm afk at the moment but if you want to chat in world just drop me an IM. I'm clearing out my inventory - ooh the excitement lol.

***edit I didn't answer your actual question. I think others might consider it one way or the other. It isn't BDSM to me as I practice it, but then there's no one way or right way, only what's good for YOU.

And that sim ain't good for you Rose

Denise, I may well take you up on your offer, if you are willing. I don't believe I would ever subscribe to the Gorean philosophy, but I am curious and would be respectful.

QFT!

And even in the slave category...in the novels....Norman stated the ratio of Free Women to slaves was 40:1, so a very minute portion of the female Gorean population were slaves.

Then within that tiny segment, the vast majority of slaves were work slaves: field slaves, factory slaves, government slaves, etc. Remember, on "Gor" slaves were part of the economy (again, think ancient Rome).

Only the very wealthy could own personal slaves due to the cost of upkeep and those who did owned them primarily for domestic duties - think the role of a maid.

So we get down to a teeny-tiny sliver of what was known as the "love slave" - the adored, perfumed, silked girl whose Master actually fell in love with her.

But when women role play Gor, how many do you think choose the field slave, factory slave, domestic slave, etc. role? It's like when I first became involved...EVERY male was a warrior. Thank goodness there has finally been some change in that and now there are many in Gorean sims in the role of Physicians, Scribes, Builders (a HUGE caste on SL...lol), Players (those who play kaissa - based on chess - for a living), etc.

I am willing, I will IM you in game with my alt. I can show you around all the different types of settlements in total safety to yourself and explain what each is and what goes on. Cities/panther, taluna camps/merc camps/wagons camps and even villages

Cherry, you are wise and precisely accurate about me and the slave auction sim. I'm not into the "hurts so good" thing. The thought of being sold into slavery doesn't make me tingle. But it was a unique experience. I may take you up on your offer of a bit of a chat next time I'm logged on. I'll watch for you. Thanks again.

I would also encourage you to go to either Iaomai or Piedmont - you will be met at either place by someone who will take you on a guided tour. Neither place tries to get you to join...but as was noted...many Gorean sims are lovely and just a tour is interesting. To see an actual Gorean town built very closely to the books, complete with fields, orchards and a saw mill, in addition to the city parts...I HIGHLY encourage a tour to Piedmont.

Yes, actually slaves are not the highest percentage of women in SL Gor, there are many FW in cities and living outside the laws of the cities including the massive number of panther/taluna camps.

There are some 'white silk' slaves who aren't there just for the furring of a Master who do actually just like to RP serving and working.

Thank you so much, Denise. I look forward to meeting you. Umm...I am not at home just now. I will send an IM to you as Denise when I log on until we manage to bump into each other.

The Gorean people don't mind people dropping over and asking for a tour? I am always respectful of other people's RP, of course.