Should I trust SLBB?

SLBB Second Life Business Bureau http://www.slbb.biz is a organization within SL that encourages good business ethics. This doesnt neccessarily mean they practice these same business ethics

Requests by LL are forcing SLBB to change its name, to one of several ideas being thought of(Virtual Bussiness Bureau, In-world Business Bureau, or Metaverse Business Bureau)

My question is, should they be trusted in the current form that they are in? A few things that I do knhow about SLBB:

Structure:
Structure of SLBB has 1 founder and 8 board members, atleast one of these board members are part of the founders family.

Credentials:
As of the posting of this forum thread, no credentials have been provided by the founder or any board members that would show experience in ethical business practice matters.

Policies:
While SLBB has certain standards such as equality, fairness, and neutrality. They dont seem to follow this mantra, several examples include, posting private IM's in public group channels, disabling legitimate proposals from the group proposal list, infact as of right now only the founder can make proposals or vote on proposals. Exempting LL themselves from following ethical business practices directed at SLBB. And no willingness to question business practices be larger corporations for fear of legal problems that might arise.

These flaws in the foundation of SLBB show that they do not govern themselves to the same standards that they require thier members to abide by in thier "member standards"

From my expereince within SLBB as being a member till this past evening, I feel that this is a noble idea but, sadly like many groups, falls victim to its own egotistical impulses. SLBB is ultimately controlled by one person, and this persons ethics are the base model for the entire group. There is no voting on matters concerning the members of SLBB, and the final word is but one persons decision. IMHO a group that ingages in this kind of oversight and regulation, should not be based on a dictatorship principle, nor should it exempt any other organization it does business with from the ethical policies it requests from its members

So the question is, should I trust that this group will do good in SL?

No. Examine their track record (if any) and draw your conclusions.

This is the dilemma of all 'better business bureaus' online.

Who will guard the guardians, and what is 'voting' or 'democracy' in an anonymous world?

I've even seen the '5 stars' object rating on SLExchange gamed - it doesn't take a lot of money or time to trash someone's reputation with a seemingly 'random' string of complaints.

Quite often, being part of a flawed solution is even worse than the original problem.


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What's odd, is people try to use *me* as a better business bureau, almost nightly, and especially 'big ticket' stuff.

"Who should I go to for X?" or "What do you think of person Y?" "Would you buy a sim off of Z?"

I hate responding to these.



I'm just waiting for the day one of the 'better business bureaus' accidentally trashes one of the respected, honest merchants on the grid, like say Pixeldolls or Abbotts Aerodrome or something.

Watch the better business bureau lose all credibility overnight when that happens.

Desmond, people ask you cause they want to emulate you, obviously your a role model for many.

Funny thing happened last night, my RL mother decided to come online, well to say the least she was a noobie to the 10th power. she got all excited about finding a plot for sale for JUST L$1 !!!. Perfect beachfront plot... now remember that I have several sims myself and just had to teleport to where she was about to make her home... well needless to say it plot advertised was just that, advertisement, for L$1 you could own the plot for 5 minutes, at which time the plot price increased to L$25k I do see a need for sheparding and watchdogging, but rules for establishment have to be better than just one persons ideas

I've already seen questionable actions by one member. I will not be joining this group.

MS

Seems everyone in the world is throwing up a free template site, putting a blog on it, and calling it something important

What's the alternative? It is the only one doing it so far.

Then it would seem the only alternative is to either wait until they have some credibility, or wait until someone else does. And that assumes that you even feel the need for such a thing. As for me personally, I don't feel it's necessary to have such a thing in Second Life, at least at this stage.


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Well I joined and decided to see how it goes not even listed on the site yet lol. Anyhow my big worry was that the investigations would be publicized with a pile of details and they aren't. The BBB is pretty much run the same way businesses join but they aren't necessarily part of the actual BBB process. As for the IM what that person did was inappropriate and they were told so and it was asked that people dont just burst into the SLBBB chat and sling around accusations so this showed me that it was trying to be something as credible as possible given the circumstances.

I'm not much for "credentials" in order to do a job I used to work in health care and had tons of credentials and 2 degrees and blah blah blah blah blah. The only reason I got the credentials is because they said I needed a paper to do the job. I then left because of growing safety issues (government cuts backs -> not enough staff to do the job -> errors --> lawsuits --> me leaving because i dont want to get sued ) I then took up website design and then development and it all came from books. I do as good a job as the guy who went to school and has the paper.

So are actualy credentials needed? Well I dont think so. I have no idea how the SLBB will turn out so far to me it seems pretty decent. No one goes off and accuses a guy for no reason withouth proof (this is my big thing I dont want to be a part of a blacklist system ) .

I actualy dont see they are functioning to much differently the users or "members of the SLBB" should not be on the board. I dont think any are on the board actualy that are members if that makes any sense. Yes they are members and possibly own a businesss but this doesnt appear to make them anymore important in that respect. I look at them like any non profit organization really. The employees can't sit on the board and one person who is a member of the actualy group/business/organization can attent meetings but has no ability to make decisions. In this case I dont see the board members as being the service providers. I see the person doing the investigations going to the board and saying eep a decision needs to be made what shall we do. I have not as of yet seen the person making the decision doing so in a vacuum. This to me given the nature of how well this can be done inside SL seems to be actualy being done.

Anyhow such is life I'm glad they are unwilling to defame a person and asking people not to defame people in the chat and a request was put for people who do belong to go through regular channels if they have a complaint and not blurt it out.

So far so good nothing inappropriate is being done which is fine for me.

Added after they are not exempting LL from the SLBBB in that respect a decision was made and appropriately so I might at that they wont be taking Linden lab complaints. This makes no sense to take Linden Lab complaints as Linden Labs is basically a "real world" business and people can go to the BBB and lodge a complaint so it makes no sense to duplicate a service and clog up the SLBBB with Linden Lab issues. It was my understanding this group/organization was formed to deal with what I would consider an unofficial business not truly real world based even though they might claim taxes but how can someone go to the BBB over a guy who makes houses in SL or whatever and the guy's pixel house wasn't in the box or a freebie. This is what the SLBBB is for why would you go to the SLBBB about linden labs, toyota, nike or any other large corporations who may have a place in SEcond Life when a well recognized and very old real world based system isin place to handle issues with regards to complaints about these guys it makes no sense.

Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodies? (who's watching the watchmen)

Alan Moore is god.

lol you notice that too?

Yes he is but he stole it from soimeone else, I forget who said it but that statement is quite old, the fact alone that it's in latin shows that since so few people (outside of Vatican City of course) know it fluently.

There are always more than one perspective within any view regarding someone trying to make a difference.

There are many examples of people that have found themselves with problems, whether a vendor against a 'customer(s)', or the other way round. One of the many reasons that problem occurred, was misinformation or ambiguity.

Senerio One:
Customer buys goods, doesnt read the notices and or instructions and makes a mess of the goods, or cannot get them to work as they 'perceived' they should. They go about trashing that vendor to anyone that will listen.

Senerio Two:
A Customer buys goods, does read the instructions and notices, but the goods are either faulty or not as described, they try contacting the vendor with no reply, they go about trashing the vendor, who turns out to be a large corporate who threatens to sue them in RL. The vendor pays a large sum of money to create a slander campaign against that indivdual to shut them up.

Senerio Three:
A company decides to break into an existing market, so it pays people to remove small compeditors or reduce them to a point whereby they can buy them out and asset strip them. Using slander and bully tatics.

In all three cases, those who feel agreived, where can they go, what can they do..? Go to LL? Report abuse and hope for a reply.. best they can hope for is a 'LL do not interfere with issues between two parties unless it can be proved that they are breaking TOS'. Is there a central place, anywhere where at least fair play policies may or do exist?

Providing that all matters are transparent and at least appear fair policy/result to the vast majority when dealing with issues between two or more parties, it should be supported and given time to prove its own worth. Slander is cheap and quick, to prove worth takes a lot of time and effort, to mantain worth/credability takes even more time and effort.. at least give them time.

No - I called mine, Mhaijik Things

Definitely do NOT trust this group. There used to be 8 Board members but one had the decency to step down after I continued to complain about biased edits to my written statements and the founder's constant edits to the website. Anyone can send me a instant message to get the full information on this month-long campaign of nonsense from these people. I have it all time-lined out on a notecard.

If they're trying to be legit, you'd think they'd maybe update the site a bit more? The list of current members is dated Feb 9th, and the complaints section is dated Mar 10th. The compliments section is dated Mar 27th, but then again, it's empty.

Edit: after perusing the website a bit, I find it lacking any real information. At this time I'd be leary of them.

You need to look at the bottom of the pages for the last update dates.

How I see it, at least it provides somewhere for people to go if they have problems and someone to mediate for them. Too often people are stuck alone with loses with nobody to help.

What is the most responsible and fair way to create and operate a BBB in sl? Any ideas anyone?

Elinah

You can't for the same reason that you can't form a useful one in the real world.

A BBB has to be funded by its member firms because the individual consumer doesn't value the information enough to pay operating costs. Since the BBB's customers are the firms it is listing, there is an inherent conflict of interest. Furthermore, as in Real Life, any SL BBB has very little "teeth" and can only attempt to moderate disputes or de-list the firm.

This concept has been tried in SL seriously a few times over the last few years; they never ultimately work.

You are saying it would basically have to be run by dedicated and impartial volunteers who were not in it for the money ?

Elinah

BBB in SL is like BBB anywhere else the entire thing is voluntary. On both ends its basically a mediation and arbitration service to help those communicate. If the business doesn't want to do it the BBB in real world says so on the site and gives them a customer service rating just like you or anyone else would on the basis of whether they made an effort.

That's all a business bureau is a place where people try to help out for no money and is supported usually by donations from members aka "not for profit organization". I'm not sure what the fuss is about they try to help if a customer goes to them by taking the information and going to the merchant which could of course even be a BBB supporter. They send a note on your behalf etc with the details you give. The merchant either responds or does not and sometimes the customer gets helped and sometimes they don't. Then the information on outcome which usually is pretty sketchy is listed as this business and this customer are involved the results are either they got helped = satisfactory or not helped = unsatisfactory. That's it not particularly shady or dodgy or anything and pretty tame stuff. Over time as with any business a pattern shows so if you in 2 years time have a problem with a business you can go to the site do a search and pull up the name. If any complaints were received then they are listed if they were resolved then the ranking of the business shows they were resolved if they were not then it shows that. Then the customer can decide from there what to do about their problem. In the real world and even in SL we are both consumer and merchant so its something we all potentially have a use for.

What you mention here is the Ideal Wilhelm. What the OP states is what this group actually engages in. I answered 9 points to one of their board member's claims on April 13th. The founder posted her editorial and her board member's full statements and edited mine. When I went to her site on May 2nd and saw this I contacted her with my complaint. She began editing the claim and adding more charges and disclaimers. I now have 5 versions of the same closed claim. After the Arbitration I had yesterday that was never offered to me in April she added yesterday that I refused arbitration. Even though we have a follow-up arbitration scheduled for this Sunday. The website is used like a blunt instrument against all that oppose.

Well i'm still watching so far they are learning and seem to take input and stuff. In any event they no longer list any comments which is the way it should be and should have at the start. This looks like a learning process and I have even seen LL give some input to them and it made sense and they ask for help so I'm not totally sure about all that I have expressed a concern and i'm not exactly the best writter and many people take me the wrong way but was met with a polite response and it turned out they had similar concerns.

I tend to go from what I see so far what i see aint half bad in fact I really like it and I find the people who run it to be quite caring. I haven't looked it they had a delisting process either yet but that is another thing they need to add but all this kinda takes time. In any event names in the BBB drop off the list after 1 year and become listed as satisfactory so basically everyone starts with a clean slate once a year if they had one claim against them and their listing changes from unsatisfactory to satisfactory.

Me I want to do something the scams are terrible and if you ask people who provide listing services to try to screen for scams so they dont become a scam tool in the end and even in some cases a tool for griefing they get angry and quite unreasonable. So for me i hope this slBBB will evolve (which it is presently doing the person learns and is not like an unchanging rock which is why i am staying with them and giving them money ) into something big and a place where merchants can list their stuff on the net and inside the game and buyers can know with a bit more certainty they are not buying something that is stolen or a scam ora freebie and likewise merchants will be more comfortable listing if its made harder for scammers to profit from the system. Presently we have a system which almost rewards scammers so I have hopes for this sytem.

Honsetly I would request a meeting in fact go to the island and talk to them or whatever they are online all the time and the blog they are using is updated like daily. Anyhow there are no comments about you anymore from what I can see or anyone other then name rank serial number and if the complaint was resolved or not. As with the BBB all information needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

I have an example where I had purchased an expensive piece of equipment from a very well known company in real world and spent $10,000 dollars and they were just stringing me along waiting for the warranty to run out when in fact they needed to refund my money because the product was a lemon and should have been pulled. Because of the nature of the product the people who used it were unsafe and the house it was used in was unsafe. I had it inspected and an attempt to repair it was made but to no avail it was classified as the worste peice of junk anyone had ever seen yet the company that sold it to me was reputable. I went to the BBB and they wrote a letter I got my money back all of it but they never answered the letter. So they declined any interaction with the BBB but the claim was resolved anyhow not just via them. The company is listed as unsatisfactory but that will drop away in another bit of time and they will then become satisfactory again. I was being ignored by the company they only took notice when a third party spoke to them. So this is what I want to see in SL and I think so far from what I see these guys will do it. "I have a dream" lol I am hoping it gets fulfilled cause I hate the wild wild west

They only stopped listing comments to keep from listing my un-edited comments so that the person that filed the complaint (another board member) could continue to use the website to slander people without identifying himself.


The board member I dealt with told me that my bs was wasting his time.


They have no de-listing or rebuttal process. The founder contacted me on April 13th with a notecard complaint. I cooperated and responded to each point on the notecard and was told my answers would appear on the website. I never even looked at the slbb website until the founder posted the link in these forums on May 2nd. I was shocked to see the full complaint and the founder's 'the customer is always right' biased editorial - but all of my statements had been carefully edited. I was told only what the founder felt was germane to the issue was posted. The railroading and bullying has gone on since then.


Guilty until proven innocent is not a acceptable policy. Listing un-investigated and un-founded slander on a website for months until they get around to looking into it is not a effective way to protect the public against scammers. Who is going to protect the non-slbb members from slbb?



One board member was selected to inform me that all the board members refuse to speak to me and will not accept my notecards - so there is NO REBUTTAL METHOD MADE AVAILABLE on the website and no clear path to the board.


The founder removed my comments and added two more complaints - one on May 5th and another on May 11th - Even after the case was closed on April 13th. When they finally contacted me for arbitration (because I would not stop complaining) I offered to send over googletalk logs. I was told they did not want these. As soon as I arrived the board member presented me with google logs and said since I did not have anything to prove the other board member was lying then they were never going to remove anything from their website. Nice set-up. When I showed him his quotes telling me not to bring googletalk logs he re-scheduled the arbitration for Sunday.

If you have the bad luck to run into one of the 7 - keep all of your chatlogs.



After the wild wild west there came cities with corrupt bully-like political bodies. This slbb is reminiscent of that stage in community growth. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. There are groups forming that will be revealing the names of the anonymous people filing these complaints and offering counter-claims to slbb's un-founded accusations. Checks and Balances will be put in place so that the half of the business community that does not pony-up the protection money to this group can stand a fighting chance.