Second Life Forums Archive - Where do I complain about a bad product please?

Strife Onizuka

Moonchild

Join date: 3 Mar 2004

Posts: 5,887

12-20-2006 15:21

I am sorry for any misunderstanding, I meant that if you were IM'ing them almost constantly and using the Search to facilitate your harassment of them. What I was warning about what would happen with the gross abuse of the tools. Simply using them to make sure your communication was heard is a good idea. Using them to make sure your communication is heard 10000 times, is a bad idea.

Sorry for not clarifying that sooner.

_____________________

Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river.
- Cyril Connolly

Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence.
- James Nachtwey

Banking Laws

Realty Serious

Join date: 14 Jun 2006

Posts: 602

12-20-2006 17:45

Let people know at http://www.secondcitizen.com

Unmoderated, uncensored and free to join forums.

_____________________

"I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid in posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."

- Thomas Jefferson, 3rd U.S. President

Don Misfit

Registered User

Join date: 1 Jun 2006

Posts: 60

12-20-2006 20:10

Christi...

The problem here is, to whom do you wish to complain? Linden Lab has created a virtual world, an environment which people use in many ways. Unfortunately, not all of those ways are considered "good" by everyone, and LL does not step into such disputes as "I bought an unsatisfactory product, and the seller won't respond."

There is no Second Life "Better Business Bureau" where one might file a complaint against a business.

So, even if it were NOT against the ToS to "name names" here on the forum, what would you hope to accomplish by posting the complaint here? Or on any other forum, for that matter?

From: someone

You said: ... the individual, who makes and sells an Archery Field for $1600 that doesn't work even after he has come and 'adjusted' it, has not responded.

I take that to mean the seller responded at least once, but you are still unsatisfied with the functionality of the Archery Field. I am assuming that you purchased the Archery Field because it looked worthwhile, and, if you could get it working you would then be happy (or at least satisfied) with the product, if not necessarily the seller.

Perhaps you might post in this or one of the other forum sections looking for other people who have purchased said Archery Field. You might find someone who could help you get yours working to the point that you'd be able to make use of it.

Just some thoughts...

Kyrah Abattoir

cruelty delight

Join date: 4 Jun 2004

Posts: 2,786

12-21-2006 00:54

on top of this its a problem between you and the seller, so keep it between the seller and you please.

_____________________

tired of XStreetSL? try those!
apez http://tinyurl.com/yfm9d5b
metalife http://tinyurl.com/yzm3yvw
metaverse exchange http://tinyurl.com/yzh7j4a
slapt http://tinyurl.com/yfqah9u

Janka Werribee

Scripter Wannabe

Join date: 28 Oct 2006

Posts: 64

12-21-2006 03:11

Something modeled after consumer advisory services where I come from might actually work for SL, if done by the right party.

The basic idea is this:
- consumer (that is, private citizens, not companies etc) can contact the service if they are unhappy with something they bought (service or product) and unable to reach agreement with the seller
- the service then informs the seller that there's been a contact and asks them for their side of the story (giving all information they receive from the consumer)
- the seller has X amount of time to answer, and can also at this point renegotiate with the consumer for reimbursement or whatever
- after this, a board of the service (I think 3-5 people?) gives a decision based on all information and a recommendation for action (if the seller does not respond, they decide based on consumer's report, again I think)
- consumer's contact, seller's answer and board's recommendation are filed to a searchable database
- either party can of course still sue the other after this procedure, but it is fairly rare
- seller is not at all bound by law or anything to follow the recommendation, but about 70 take action when one is recommended, because of reasons of publicity

Why this works is because the board is neutral and exists in order to settle disputes, not to defend either party's rights.

In SL, a neutral party like this could work on notecard reports. Say we have a notecard mailbox for reports somewhere on the grid that residents can leave reports to. Board meets once a week (or whatever), goes through the reports, assigns one person as the investigator to each case, who then contacts the seller etc. When the seller's side has been found out, the board meeting listens to the investigator's report, and files a decision. These decisions could go to a blog, and there could be a notecard mailbox with a remote fetcher available for new decisions for those who prefer in-world reports. Blog could have comments so both sides could add things if they disagree with the decision, and tags for each corporation/product/consumer, for searchability.

I think this is something that could be done on resident action alone, without Lindens' input. What is essential is that the board can build up and maintain a reputation of fairness and neutrality. That is hard work, but certainly doable.

No, I am not volunteering to organize this, but if someone else wants to, feel free to steal the above. (I can maybe provide the mailboxes.

)

Rod Longcloth

Registered User

Join date: 13 Nov 2006

Posts: 43

I agree with Janke

12-21-2006 10:40

Very well written Janke Werribee. I have been contemplating the same Idea. I have become a bit of Prefab Home whore, I have bought five and I have had one bad experience and four very good ones. The first one I bought - the display was beautiful and I bought. It took me 6 hours to finally get in place. There are many problems with this house, but I considered it a learning experience. The one major problem that had was with being able to lock down doors and teleporter. I im'd creator 8 times with not one response, finally paid someone to secure doors (very affordable and no headache) but they have been unable to secure teleporter from roof and everytime I am in house I turn around and someone is standing next to me. I know this is not reality and I am safe but I am busy and they just want to talk. Wish I had some way of telling others to not buy these homes. My other home purchases have been fantastic - to the point where creators have appeared and fixed things and added modifications with no cost. They answer immediately. Surprisinly the least expensive of all my homes was the easiest and nicest to set up and a free home he offered at his sales place is 20 times better (hope I am not breaking TOS but this is good TNT homes) than some I have paid 10 times more than the ones he sells. He not only fixed one very small item for me at no charge he did custom things and sent them to me at no cost. I also think that they should have a system that they can post at their sites that show testimonials from happy customers like myself. My last home very expensive - is beautiful and difficult but I got it done with 2 very minor fixes that I have had constant communication with the creator, and have actually had thanks given to me about problems that they were unaware of. Learn from your mistakes, but they really do seem small, most creators love what they are doing and are there to help. Lastly I have moved out of first house that I loved but cannot enjoy because of traffic through it but am still asked about it I tell every person that they should not buy and direct them to the good guys. Like they say, bad word of mouth to our friends travels better and faster than any posting or just sitting around stewing. Lets get something going like a Better Business Bureau going like Janke suggest and I am willing to help. Lets also not forget to let the good merchants no that we appreciate them.

Kyrah Abattoir

cruelty delight

Join date: 4 Jun 2004

Posts: 2,786

12-21-2006 12:04

In all honesty i can't read this.

_____________________

tired of XStreetSL? try those!
apez http://tinyurl.com/yfm9d5b
metalife http://tinyurl.com/yzm3yvw
metaverse exchange http://tinyurl.com/yzh7j4a
slapt http://tinyurl.com/yfqah9u

Allana Dion

Registered User

Join date: 12 Jul 2005

Posts: 1,230

12-21-2006 16:35

Is it possible the person is simply away for the holidays?

_____________________

Angelique LaFollette

Registered User

Join date: 17 Jun 2004

Posts: 1,595

12-21-2006 17:47

From: Christi Maeterlinck

That was the advice I was given by Customer Support, nevertheless.
I have sent the maker a multitude of messages for over a week now.
Please. All I asked you is for your advice about where I might provide the details: something that _you_ didn't actually respond to.

Christi

Simple answer, you go to one of the Third Party Forums, as LL's terms of use for these threads specificly forbids naming names, or Locations or Airing personal disputes, And, no matter How nicely you word a complaint, it's STILL a complaint, and LL does Not was Players using these forums for that purpose whether the complaint is Justified or Not.

Check out the Various third Party Forums, thier rules in general are a Little more relaxed.

Angel.

FD Spark

Prim & Texture Doodler

Join date: 30 Oct 2006

Posts: 4,697

12-22-2006 00:30

Sadly I have even experienced few bad shopping experiences enough that I am pretty much decided to shop only selectively.
The only thing I can advise you to do is make special note of the store and owner, tell your friends within game to not go to the person and why or create your own blog or website about your shopping experiences if you have the time and energy to do so.

Krazzora Zaftig

Do you have my marbles?

Join date: 20 Aug 2005

Posts: 649

12-22-2006 07:39

From: FD Spark

Sadly I have even experienced few bad shopping experiences enough that I am pretty much decided to shop only selectively.
The only thing I can advise you to do is make special note of the store and owner, tell your friends within game to not go to the person and why or create your own blog or website about your shopping experiences if you have the time and energy to do so.

The power of blogs. Sadly it's so infectious I am tempted to start one when I can get my webserver running again. >_<

_____________________

FD Spark

Prim & Texture Doodler

Join date: 30 Oct 2006

Posts: 4,697

12-23-2006 12:42

yeah I am thinking of creating blog on shopping in sl myself.
the strangest demo thing I found was this horse that you were suppose to ride it.
I took snapshot of it with the image that creator made of how horse is suppose to work and my av using it.
The av looks like he is being "rode" by the horse.
LOL

Gillian Waldman

Buttercup

Join date: 1 Oct 2006

Posts: 697

12-24-2006 07:17

Just my own 0.02: I believe there needs to be caution when writing in blogs for the purpose of reviewing items, particularly negative ones. Frankly, a lot of the issues I see here on the forums are user error - not product error. Before complaining, try to see if the issue is on your end

If not, then by all means, fire away. Just MHO.

FYI FD, I got a horse for Xmas in SL. He is totally rideable - but you have to read the notecard to see what modifications you might need to make to your settings (AO off for instance) to have it look ok. I am sure there are many places that sell these but mine works just fine

Take care,
Gillian

Conan Godwin

In ur base kilin ur d00ds

Join date: 2 Aug 2006

Posts: 3,676

12-25-2006 14:35

From: Elex Dusk

It's unlikely that Customer Support (formerly known as Live Help) would encourage a resident to "name names" within the forums as it would be a violation of the Terms of Service and Community Standards for the forums.

.

Keep in mind that the live helpers are not LL staff, they are volunteers - it's unlikely they'd get the chance to do it twice though.

Where do I complain about a bad product please?
Strife Onizuka Moonchild Join date: 3 Mar 2004 Posts: 5,887	12-20-2006 15:21 I am sorry for any misunderstanding, I meant that if you were IM'ing them almost constantly and using the Search to facilitate your harassment of them. What I was warning about what would happen with the gross abuse of the tools. Simply using them to make sure your communication was heard is a good idea. Using them to make sure your communication is heard 10000 times, is a bad idea. Sorry for not clarifying that sooner. _____________________ Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river. - Cyril Connolly Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence. - James Nachtwey
Banking Laws Realty Serious Join date: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 602	12-20-2006 17:45 Let people know at http://www.secondcitizen.com Unmoderated, uncensored and free to join forums. _____________________ "I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid in posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale." - Thomas Jefferson, 3rd U.S. President
Don Misfit Registered User Join date: 1 Jun 2006 Posts: 60	12-20-2006 20:10 Christi... The problem here is, to whom do you wish to complain? Linden Lab has created a virtual world, an environment which people use in many ways. Unfortunately, not all of those ways are considered "good" by everyone, and LL does not step into such disputes as "I bought an unsatisfactory product, and the seller won't respond." There is no Second Life "Better Business Bureau" where one might file a complaint against a business. So, even if it were NOT against the ToS to "name names" here on the forum, what would you hope to accomplish by posting the complaint here? Or on any other forum, for that matter? From: someone You said: ... the individual, who makes and sells an Archery Field for $1600 that doesn't work even after he has come and 'adjusted' it, has not responded. I take that to mean the seller responded at least once, but you are still unsatisfied with the functionality of the Archery Field. I am assuming that you purchased the Archery Field because it looked worthwhile, and, if you could get it working you would then be happy (or at least satisfied) with the product, if not necessarily the seller. Perhaps you might post in this or one of the other forum sections looking for other people who have purchased said Archery Field. You might find someone who could help you get yours working to the point that you'd be able to make use of it. Just some thoughts...
Kyrah Abattoir cruelty delight Join date: 4 Jun 2004 Posts: 2,786	12-21-2006 00:54 on top of this its a problem between you and the seller, so keep it between the seller and you please. _____________________ tired of XStreetSL? try those! apez http://tinyurl.com/yfm9d5b metalife http://tinyurl.com/yzm3yvw metaverse exchange http://tinyurl.com/yzh7j4a slapt http://tinyurl.com/yfqah9u
Janka Werribee Scripter Wannabe Join date: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 64	12-21-2006 03:11 Something modeled after consumer advisory services where I come from might actually work for SL, if done by the right party. The basic idea is this: - consumer (that is, private citizens, not companies etc) can contact the service if they are unhappy with something they bought (service or product) and unable to reach agreement with the seller - the service then informs the seller that there's been a contact and asks them for their side of the story (giving all information they receive from the consumer) - the seller has X amount of time to answer, and can also at this point renegotiate with the consumer for reimbursement or whatever - after this, a board of the service (I think 3-5 people?) gives a decision based on all information and a recommendation for action (if the seller does not respond, they decide based on consumer's report, again I think) - consumer's contact, seller's answer and board's recommendation are filed to a searchable database - either party can of course still sue the other after this procedure, but it is fairly rare - seller is not at all bound by law or anything to follow the recommendation, but about 70 take action when one is recommended, because of reasons of publicity Why this works is because the board is neutral and exists in order to settle disputes, not to defend either party's rights. In SL, a neutral party like this could work on notecard reports. Say we have a notecard mailbox for reports somewhere on the grid that residents can leave reports to. Board meets once a week (or whatever), goes through the reports, assigns one person as the investigator to each case, who then contacts the seller etc. When the seller's side has been found out, the board meeting listens to the investigator's report, and files a decision. These decisions could go to a blog, and there could be a notecard mailbox with a remote fetcher available for new decisions for those who prefer in-world reports. Blog could have comments so both sides could add things if they disagree with the decision, and tags for each corporation/product/consumer, for searchability. I think this is something that could be done on resident action alone, without Lindens' input. What is essential is that the board can build up and maintain a reputation of fairness and neutrality. That is hard work, but certainly doable. No, I am not volunteering to organize this, but if someone else wants to, feel free to steal the above. (I can maybe provide the mailboxes. )
Rod Longcloth Registered User Join date: 13 Nov 2006 Posts: 43	I agree with Janke 12-21-2006 10:40 Very well written Janke Werribee. I have been contemplating the same Idea. I have become a bit of Prefab Home whore, I have bought five and I have had one bad experience and four very good ones. The first one I bought - the display was beautiful and I bought. It took me 6 hours to finally get in place. There are many problems with this house, but I considered it a learning experience. The one major problem that had was with being able to lock down doors and teleporter. I im'd creator 8 times with not one response, finally paid someone to secure doors (very affordable and no headache) but they have been unable to secure teleporter from roof and everytime I am in house I turn around and someone is standing next to me. I know this is not reality and I am safe but I am busy and they just want to talk. Wish I had some way of telling others to not buy these homes. My other home purchases have been fantastic - to the point where creators have appeared and fixed things and added modifications with no cost. They answer immediately. Surprisinly the least expensive of all my homes was the easiest and nicest to set up and a free home he offered at his sales place is 20 times better (hope I am not breaking TOS but this is good TNT homes) than some I have paid 10 times more than the ones he sells. He not only fixed one very small item for me at no charge he did custom things and sent them to me at no cost. I also think that they should have a system that they can post at their sites that show testimonials from happy customers like myself. My last home very expensive - is beautiful and difficult but I got it done with 2 very minor fixes that I have had constant communication with the creator, and have actually had thanks given to me about problems that they were unaware of. Learn from your mistakes, but they really do seem small, most creators love what they are doing and are there to help. Lastly I have moved out of first house that I loved but cannot enjoy because of traffic through it but am still asked about it I tell every person that they should not buy and direct them to the good guys. Like they say, bad word of mouth to our friends travels better and faster than any posting or just sitting around stewing. Lets get something going like a Better Business Bureau going like Janke suggest and I am willing to help. Lets also not forget to let the good merchants no that we appreciate them.
Kyrah Abattoir cruelty delight Join date: 4 Jun 2004 Posts: 2,786	12-21-2006 12:04 In all honesty i can't read this. _____________________ tired of XStreetSL? try those! apez http://tinyurl.com/yfm9d5b metalife http://tinyurl.com/yzm3yvw metaverse exchange http://tinyurl.com/yzh7j4a slapt http://tinyurl.com/yfqah9u
Allana Dion Registered User Join date: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 1,230	12-21-2006 16:35 Is it possible the person is simply away for the holidays? _____________________
Angelique LaFollette Registered User Join date: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 1,595	12-21-2006 17:47 From: Christi Maeterlinck That was the advice I was given by Customer Support, nevertheless. I have sent the maker a multitude of messages for over a week now. Please. All I asked you is for your advice about where I might provide the details: something that _you_ didn't actually respond to. Christi Simple answer, you go to one of the Third Party Forums, as LL's terms of use for these threads specificly forbids naming names, or Locations or Airing personal disputes, And, no matter How nicely you word a complaint, it's STILL a complaint, and LL does Not was Players using these forums for that purpose whether the complaint is Justified or Not. Check out the Various third Party Forums, thier rules in general are a Little more relaxed. Angel.
FD Spark Prim & Texture Doodler Join date: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 4,697	12-22-2006 00:30 Sadly I have even experienced few bad shopping experiences enough that I am pretty much decided to shop only selectively. The only thing I can advise you to do is make special note of the store and owner, tell your friends within game to not go to the person and why or create your own blog or website about your shopping experiences if you have the time and energy to do so.
Krazzora Zaftig Do you have my marbles? Join date: 20 Aug 2005 Posts: 649	12-22-2006 07:39 From: FD Spark Sadly I have even experienced few bad shopping experiences enough that I am pretty much decided to shop only selectively. The only thing I can advise you to do is make special note of the store and owner, tell your friends within game to not go to the person and why or create your own blog or website about your shopping experiences if you have the time and energy to do so. The power of blogs. Sadly it's so infectious I am tempted to start one when I can get my webserver running again. >_< _____________________
FD Spark Prim & Texture Doodler Join date: 30 Oct 2006 Posts: 4,697	12-23-2006 12:42 yeah I am thinking of creating blog on shopping in sl myself. the strangest demo thing I found was this horse that you were suppose to ride it. I took snapshot of it with the image that creator made of how horse is suppose to work and my av using it. The av looks like he is being "rode" by the horse. LOL
Gillian Waldman Buttercup Join date: 1 Oct 2006 Posts: 697	12-24-2006 07:17 Just my own 0.02: I believe there needs to be caution when writing in blogs for the purpose of reviewing items, particularly negative ones. Frankly, a lot of the issues I see here on the forums are user error - not product error. Before complaining, try to see if the issue is on your end If not, then by all means, fire away. Just MHO. FYI FD, I got a horse for Xmas in SL. He is totally rideable - but you have to read the notecard to see what modifications you might need to make to your settings (AO off for instance) to have it look ok. I am sure there are many places that sell these but mine works just fine Take care, Gillian
Conan Godwin In ur base kilin ur d00ds Join date: 2 Aug 2006 Posts: 3,676	12-25-2006 14:35 From: Elex Dusk It's unlikely that Customer Support (formerly known as Live Help) would encourage a resident to "name names" within the forums as it would be a violation of the Terms of Service and Community Standards for the forums. . Keep in mind that the live helpers are not LL staff, they are volunteers - it's unlikely they'd get the chance to do it twice though.

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Where do I complain about a bad product please?