Is Anonymity Really Necessary?

I agree completely. People shouldn't be forced to take risks they're not comfortable with, but neither should people be allowed to be criminal scumbags with no accountability. There has to be a happy medium in there somewhere. If I encourage people to be open about the things they enjoy it's because I think society as a whole should be far more permissive and far less judgmental, not because I think anyone should be forced to out themselves. The tinier a minority is the easier it is for people to marginalize them. While I understand people's reasoning, I think it can be argued that those who sit back and allow themselves to be marginalized can be considered somewhat complicit.

Yes, you have a good point there. Accountability is really what is needed. But that would require Linden Lab to make judgement calls on fault and act accordingly, a role they have made very clear they dont' want. So, we have what we have, if you have an issue with someone, you have to start RL legal proceedings just to get LL to provide you with the other person's actual identity. This fails to act as much deterrent to those bent on doing wrong, as they correctly deduce few will go to such lengths. And thus the issues continue.

And I was thinking of that very Penny Arcade comic, so true!

Just exactly WHAT KIND of accountability is being threatened here? The SL world is an imaginative world - why should we hold our imaginations accountable to other people?

Say for instance someone not being able to walk away scott free after using a ponzi scheme to defraud almost a million dollars. Or how about just an effective way to actually ban habitual griefers and hit them with a nice little fine?

Nothing is served by us knowing who everyone is in RL.
If I know that a griefer or a vendor is Joe Bloggs of Austin Texas, it doesn't help me resolve the griefing or sort out a US$2 purchase.
Just my knowing that you are Joe Bloggs of Austin Texas would in no way lead me to trust you or like you any more than I might without that knowledge.

Accountability for our actions in SL should be handled through LL.

Would you really sort out that griefer in RL?
If so, there's no way I want you to have my RL details. It's not that I'm a griefer. I just don't want to give a potentially deranged person any more information than is strictly necessary.


A number of friends in SL know something of my RL, and I of theirs. Some details came up in passing in conversations. They or anyone else does not really *need* to know.
I've met two in RL. They had to know so that we would recognise one another.

The accountability I think most, and I know that I, am referring to has to do with things which are against the law in RL, theft, destruction of property, and what have you. Second Life may be an imaginative world, but many do make Real World dollars here, and many have been defrauded out of those Real World dollars by others in Second Life. In these instances, Accountability is needed. But currently, there is scant none.

I was referring to the use of the term Anonymity in the manner the OP used it.

Seems Travis and Chip are using a broader definition.

Just want to point that out since it makes the conversation more difficult to follow.

I agree with you Sling.
Anyway, we don't need to know the petty details of everyone's real lives. Partners, neighbours, colleagues and relatives are already available for that pleasure. Mind you, boyfriends can have griefer attributes.

I had a recent incident which really made me very aware of just how much information can be gathered on you in a small amount of time.

I finally got around to getting myself a gmail address, at the request of one of the forum members that I'd become friendly with. We wanted to be able to catch up with each other a bit better, offline, dish a little.

By mistake, I left my real name on the email account. Mind you, I had done a test email to my regular email at AOL (which in not my avatar name, so don't try to find me there lol). It did NOT show up my RL name, so I was totally unaware that this was the case. Just had my av name at Gmail, like it should.

OK, so I write this person a long email, and in the end, write my real name saying I had nothing to hide, meaning that I felt ok giving out just my real first name. Nothing more.

Person writes me back, and says to me "Elora!!! Please take your RL FULL NAME off the gmail account asap!"

Well, apparently when it went off to that person, it had my entire full name in front of the gmail account name!

/me slaps myself silly in the head!

From my name alone, he/she was able to gather home address, what I paid for my home 7 years ago, my husband's name, and a few more tidbits. Now, there is nearly no information for me on the web at all, thankfully, other than that. But, I have a very unusual last name as does my husband and if there had been more info around, it could have been extremely dicey. It was bad enough, that my address/phone number was so easily had. If this friend, was not really a friend (and, I do consider them a friend, I trust them enough to not have to worry) but out to get me - think of how quickly they could have been stalking me.

I have only given out my personal information to 2 people I've met here in SL. And that was after much serious thought and after knowing them for a while. One of them, I have not yet divulged my last name to yet, although they know where I live (I'm about to, since I now am sure it's safe to do so).

For women especially, being safe online is very important, but even for men its the same. I used to do work with women who's husbands were sexually addicted and let me tell you, the stories I heard from the husbands about having women call your home to come after them and then harrass their wives as well, is just as bad, even tho that man is to certainly to blame for the actions he brought upon his family. Being stalked, no matter who does it, for whatever reason is no laughing matter and nobody deserves it, regardless of circumstances.

You're absolutely right that Linden doesn't want that role. But I'd suggest that accountability does not have to involve Linden Lab doing anything. We as residents can hold each other accountable.

Anyone who has been ripped off can get a set of court orders.
Band together with others who have been riped off and pool resources.
LL will hand over all they have an an avatar.
Follow the money trail. Follow the IP trail. Get more court orders.
A persons RL identity does not have to be public in order to trace them.
If LL had true details on everyone, it would (just) shorten the process.

If LL had true details on every account, they could hit griefers in a number of ways. There is no need for the RL info to be public.

heh - I just reread the OP, and you're absolutely right, Colette. (At least speaking for myself).

I see anonymity as a source of much trouble on the Internets. But I'm not referring to Privacy - which I think is what the OP truly meant. In that respect, I'm completely with you.

Yes, we can to a certain extent. But only after an injustice has transpired. Once Joe Knobby takes Sara Newbie's Lindens, we can label Joe as a bad apple. But that doesn't get Sara's Lindens back. Only LL could do that. They have the power to do it, but they won't use it. I can understand why, becoming an institutionalized government is the last thing they want to do. But it does put everyone in SL in a bad situation. It's a complex issue to be sure.

This isn't even remotely close to what anyone is suggesting here. Straw man, anyone?


Actually the OP was somewhat vague about what they meant, and as a result this thread (like most long arguments) involves a lot of confusing arguing about very different things. For example, look at the first part of this post.

But we, as residents, can do precious little unless we own entire sims and ban the individuals. Something like BanLink is a start toward individuals being able to band together to enforce accountability. But for every sim or estate that uses BanLink to ban griefers, there's a thousand more that have no such protection. The average parcel owner can only ban someone from their parcel, and the griefer can still stand on the next parcel over and continue griefing. Even a sim owner, if they lock the griefer out of their entire estate, can't keep that griefer from standing in an adjacent sim owned by someone else.

The Lindens are the ONLY group that potentially has any real power to enforce accountability. And it is pathetically shameful that they absolutely refuse to accept that responsibility.

Ditto. I'm a big advocate of privacy rights and I think data mining and warehousing for commercial or political grounds is pretty close to pure evil. My guestion would be, at what point does someone's right not to be victimized trump someone else's right to anonymity? Of course without actual enforcement it's a pretty moot point.

Noone said anything about making RL info public. As I and others stated, that would be "a very bad idea". Accountability is different than that. Here's a real world example:

You are walking down the street and a perfect stranger accosts you and takes your wallet. You don't know them, they are anonymous to you. You call the police and point him out to the officer. The officer demands this person provide identification, and searches him, finding your wallet. Reports are filed blah blah, but eventually you know who they are. They aren't anonymous to you anymore. And you got your wallet back.

The problem in SL is, there is no 'officer' to call when someone takes your virtual 'wallet'. He can stand there laughing at you, and there's nothing you can do. Why? no accountability. Your idea of pooling resources and getting LL to hand over this person's RL identity is nice, and thats the kind of *accountability* that is needed. However, in real practice, its not as simple, cut, and dried as you make it sound. Most who perpetrate fraud in SL will get away with it.

I dont know the OP asked



Now I read that as asking

Would you join a virtual environment which demanded you use your RL identity when you are participating in that RL environment.

Thus exactly what the "strawman" you labeled refers to.

The question makes no sense otherwise, since you already give LL your identity information when you sign up.

First off, I added to my post to respond to something you said, where I/we address this very issue. That is, the OP's question was never clear and so people just started making assumptions. Like, say, the assumption you lay out here.

Second, your reading of the question is still far from Lizz's goofy little scenario. Nothing about the statement "you use your RL identity" implies walking around with your ssn on a sign.


I did, but that isn't required. All they ask for is a valid email address. That is certainly more information than they used to ask for, but it's still a far cry from RL identifying information.

No they ask for your information

They just don't require you provide any proof that is who you are.

Im pretty sure anyway.

They ask you age and RL name , etc.


I have no problem them asking any of that.


If the fact that this information isn't checked anywhere .. then thats a separate issue. It becomes the Verification question.


Ive read the Original Post again, my interpretation still seems a perfectly reasonable one to me, especially in light of the OPs further post.

There are three ways of identifying an SL perp.
1) Use their publicly available ID
2) Get their verified ID from LL under a court order
3) Get whatever LL have and use that with further court orders.

I didn't mean to imply that the process would be at all simple.
Read up on the efforts to pursue spammers who do real damage to networks and end user machines. As an example, this guy (below) has been notorious for *years*. It's taken a lot of effort be a lot of people to even begin to get near him.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080103/NEWS06/80103045/1008/NEWS06
Ralsky is FAMOUS!!!
Knowing who they are is not enough.

A major SL Ponzi scheme is small change by comparison.
Some spiritual pygmy in his parents' basement isn't ever going to be worth pursuing.

The only rational approach is for LL to defend their system and users against abusers in the same way that any decent service provider does.

Though I may not openly give out my RL name, I am me in SL, or at least my main as one or more role play alts may be coming down the pipe. I will often share SL and RL experiences with others at one level or another, of course how personal these experiences are also depends on how much I trust the individual(s) I am sharing them with. In fact my SL friends have done the same to help me through my RL problems in the past. Those I trust most know my real name and the closest internationally known city to where I live. Even those that know my RL name still use my my Avi/Online name in our communications.

So yes, Anonymity, but to a point of trust.

I have no problem with Linden Labs knowing who I am in real life.

Did anyone argue otherwise?

If not then it seems like that changes the discussion some.

Actually this seemed to be the intent of the OP..






This seem pretty clear that the intention was that we use our Real Names for starters..


I totally agree with Colette here






So I pushed a bit for emphasis. but not much.. You do understand that with your full name and address I can have all the rest in a matter of minutes? That there are online brokers that will happily sell you that information for a few dollars?

So yes once you put your real name and address out there you might as well publish the rest, as anyone that wants it can then have it.

And it is "Straw Woman" to you... *laughs*

Anonymous people are scary.