Rentals in Land for Sale

Well, I can't take credit for the proposal, it's just something I found posted in the land management forum that I thought fit in with this thread.

Maybe I'm optimistic about the feature voting, or maybe I'm still too new, but I got an email today about Linden acknowledgement of another proposal I voted on. I think if enough people yap, they'll listen, but maybe they're just a little slow on the uptake.

Being an estate owner myself, there is alot of misinformation floating around out there so am going to try to clarify things. With the new estate tools one can sell plots, the buyer of that plot can and many do sell those plots. In order for an estate owner to allow this they must check the option to divide and resale land on their estate tools. I allow my residents this option along with buying back from them if their property does not sell in a timely manner for them. When you are talking about islands you need to keep in mind there are still those that do deed only and then there are those of us who do sell and allow resale. The major difference between islands and mainland are these: cost of plots, neighborhood, lag considerations, and tier. On the mainland that is controlled by LL, so your tier is paid to LL, you may have to deal with lag, shops etc. with islands tier goes to the estate owner and neighborhoods, if they are a good island planner and designer, will be a choice you can make. Not all estate owners are out to gouge you, many are fair and honest people with excellent reputations. If I list my plots I always make sure to clarify whether it is a private estate or mainland. Now there may be some out there marking plots for sale and not allowing resale I do not know, I suppose before you buy an estate plot perhaps you should check the options to see if they can be resold or not or ask an island manager or concierge of said properties. But please quit lumping all estates and estate owners into the same barrel because we are not in the same barrel.
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Sana

Sana

There are two main issues with PI and mainland plots appearing without seperation.

1. There are rental properties being advertised by PI owners and this is galling to buyers of land and mainland landlords who do not have this free source of advertising.

2. And as important.

If I am a premium member with a part tier used (as an example 3000 sqm) I can buy more land in my tier, I may want only mainland simply because I prefer it, or because I dont want to pay two lots of tier , my LL tier plus a new PI tier, when the land I am buying would, if mainland, keep me at the same tier level.

It is equally irritating in reverse, if I am looking for PI land, I don't want the hassle of looking at mainland plots as well.

I do not see why it is so hard for Lindens to put in a extra drop down, to filter out Private Islands from the Mainland.

They have filters for Sales, Auctions and First Land. Why not add Private Islands and Mainland to that simple filter?!

For any reputable Estate Owner, the covenant should be a two way contractual obligation. If an estate owner *sells* the land, the new owner should have the right to resell the land and a commitment from the estate owner as to their rights should the Estate Owner decide to sell for whatever reason.

Contractually, my covenant reads that any proceeds from any sale of my sims will be disbursed to the owners up to the amount paid by them on a per meter basis before I take a cent for myself. If I am forced to sell at a loss, they will lose some amount of money but will not be totally out their investment. This would be no different than say, buying mainland today only to have land values plummet before they sold out and ending up losing on the end sale.

There are a very few circumstances in which the covenant provides for me to reclaim the land without compensation. Notably this includes a resident's *proven beyond a shadow of a doubt* role in theft, scamming, pyramid scheming or the like. I feel no compunctions about not returning ill-gotten gains. Also in the case of repeated and flagrant cases of late tier payments that place the sim at risk of my not being able to pay tier, though I would ask the resident to sell out before up and booting him/her. Reclaiming land will *always* be a last resort for me.

My covenant is very long, but it not only stipulates what residents are not allowed to do, but also what they can do, and what they can expect from me as the estate owner.

This all said, I do believe their should be a segmentation of mainland and private estate sales. First and foremost because I believe a well run, well contracted private sim is the best scenario for many many residents. If I didn't, I wouldn't have gotten into the business.

Above all else, you are guaranteed in my sims that there will be no lag-fest monster biz move in next door and ruin the sim performance. That's a huge issue to many many people. I will never ever live anywhere but a private estate, even if my own should ever fail.

Secondly, those folks who demand a covenant free existence because they want to run a casino or a mall or whatever that isn't permitted on any private estate they trust to buy into, or they just don't trust private estates period, should have an easier way to find that land.

ALL of our search tools are overly simplistic and could use some beefing up.


Char

Almost all of the misinformation I've seen or come across is due to estate owners being less than honest just to close the deal.

One friend rented a 'double prim' parcel; after a month she was told that "LL doesn't allow double prim land anymore" so her prim allotment was halved, but of course this didn't result in any reduction in 'tier' because it was LL's fault and not the sim owner's.

Another paid quite a bit for the piece of land and got told "you can always resell it, you might even make a profit on it when you do". Checking the land options, land in that sim can not be resold (although the covenant claims otherwise) and the sim owner will not buy it back.

When I went along this week with someone looking for a rental, she asked all the right questions but still got answers that just weren't true. When she asked if she'd own the land, he said yes, when asked if he could reclaim it any time, he said that was impossible, when asked what happened if he didn't pay the bills, he claimed LL would take over the sim and keep it running.

You can go ahead and claim they should have known better and then none of the above would have happened, but the whole process and the difference between mainland and private sims isn't all that obvious to a whole lot of people.

Have you ever even asked someone if they know what a private estate is? Or what they think the difference between private estate land and mainland land is and how it affects them?

I've been trying to understand all this mess, between mainland and PI, renting and buying, tier costs and monthly subscription fees. I'm currently just looking into buying first land (as soon as billing gets back to me on why I can't buy things with a validated paypal account), which is in great shortage... But the whole rent/sale thing is a great big mess, and it's only going through the forums that I've made any kind of sense of it, and I'm still not 100%. If I decided to "buy" from a PI, I'd have to trust that person to give me the right info, as I'm still not sure of most things, and that if I get conned, I have no way of getting my money back. I must admit I was totally and utterly confused when I tried to look for a 512sqm parcel of land on mainland that *wasn't* first land to see if the prices were much higher, and discovered people were selling land on PI.

The worst thing is, I've been playing SL for two months and know what a PI is and what kind of money you have to pay for one, but the whole concept of buying land on one is a bit odd.

It's just a pity I missed a magnificent sea front plot on first land the other day, because of my billing problems...

misrepresentation????
Sara is a very sweet landlady who is always dropping new items on me to try out and is always first to offer help when I mess up. I didnt have to buy any land, just pay tier and that has been awesome, I havent had to be a premium account either which basically means my paid membership went into 4 months of tier for 4096 land instead of paying Lindens for the dubious honor of "owning" land especially at these stupid vastly overpriced amount of Linden dollars,

Sara made me a 80 meter deep dungeon she came back later and filled it in when i got tired of it, I wonder if a Linden would do that on the mainland?, my ex was being a prick, Sara's BF banned him from every island in the region. buh bye bad ole BF.

I am certain that people who look at land as an investment ( a bad one now anyway ) or those who want absolute 100% control of their land are better served on the mainland but as for me, I want the sim that i lived on yesterday to look like it does tommorrow.

Maybe Sara IS one of the good "land barons". There may be some out there.

What really matters here is the ones who make their living on deception. They make people think they are going to buy land, when they are in fact renting.

I also think that paying $L80,000 for what is essentially a deposit for any parcel is just absurd.

In my case, chalk it up to a lot of years of absolutely horrible experiences with landlords in RL, followed by good years when I finally was able to buy a house. I just simply don't want to rent, period. I want to buy land. I don't want a middleman who can flake out on me at any time.

The current setup makes it virtually impossible to filter out the rentals from the true sales without spending hours searching for it. This is just totally WRONG!

The tab at the top of the page says "land sales". That is what it should show. NOT 1000 or more rentals for every one that truly is a "land sale". I say make them completely separate tabs. One that says "land sales", one that says "land rentals". Make it a bannable offense to list anything in sales where you don't gain total control of the land or where you have to pay a single $L more to anyone but LL.

Can you tell I feel strongly about this? lol

a few more remarks on this subject:

I am totally sure there are excellent Estate Owner landlords out there, that's the only way you can long term rental business in SL, anyone not providing excellent service with their rentals isn't going to be around long.

What i object to mainly are two things:

1) Estate (private island) owners can place a free land listing as if they are selling property and list it as a rental-do search on land sales, its full of "for rent" listings. As a mainland rental business owner i am not at liberty to do that, that being said, i feel rentals belong in either commercial listings that run $30L/wk, or in the classifieds.

2) The ability of an Estate owner or private island owner to "sell" parcels that really don't become the true property of the buyer. To me this is frankly a swindle that's being supported by SL, by not changing the way a parcel can be sold, but cannot be "resold" by the buyer. In other words you can buy, but you cant resell it to anyone, but only relinquish it back to the estate owner.

Playing fair is a big part of free enterprise in SL, i can only hope some steps to remedy the above are in the works.

The worst thing I've run across is land nestled into the mainland, that shows up yellow on the map ("for sale", with no covenant, and no estate owner, that "may be resold," etc....but in the name the word "deposit" is found and in the description one reads that "monthly tier-rent" may be paid in USD or Linden dollars. Check out Cayman sim.

Cayman sim displays its Estate, Estate Owner, and full covenant. In fact even the for sale land description has "read covenant" as part of it.

@cinda: as part of "playing fair" are you then willing to pay the same USD $295/month maintenance fee as island sim owners, as opposed to the USD $195/month currently charged for mainland sim owners?

-peekay

nb. I do not own nor rent any island property (yet.)

You're right, it does now. It also now says the land may not be resold. Perhaps I caught some sort of glitch earlier.

It was a glitch--I've been able to replicate it. It has to do with leaving the "about land" window open from a no-covenant sim, then TP'ing to the private estate and selecting "about land" from the pie-menu. Not all the fields always update, including the ones mentioned above--regarding covenant, estate owner, re-sellability, etc. (They sometimes refresh, sometimes don't.) I've taken to closing the "about land" window after each use. This bug could lead to some foolish decisions!

I've seen this when the database is heavily loaded.

However, in practice, if you decide to actually "purchase" estate land then not only the covenant is shown prominently on the purchase page, you have to mark a checkbox stating your agreement to the covenant before the purchase button appears.

-peekay

Probably 90% of the island owners are paying their original $195 tier fees, the new tier did not take effect until the new islands came out after the land (island) rush deadline. From what i read and understood all island owners prior to that date would still have the old tier ($195mo) and was not retroactive.

Nice way to sidestep -- but not answer -- the question.

If "fair" is the goal then everyone should pay $295/mo/region, no? Which means mainland tier fees should be proportionally increased, today.

Otherwise, the burden on mainland landlords to pay a few extra Lindens for classifieds seem like a great deal in comparison.

-peekay

Let me see if I can help some of the newbies here who are having problems sorting out the whole buy/rent/mainland/private island thing......

Firstly, when I first came to SL I bought and sold mainland and stayed away from private islands. At that time mainland was around 5 L/sq.m and I figured it would be "safer" and less of a hassle staying with mainland since I would be paying LL directly for the tier. What I learned during my time here is with mainland you have less control and a lot more lag because there is no covenant with the land owners. For instance, you could own more than a half of sim on the mainland but if a club or casino moves in to the sim on just a 512 plot of land and sets out camping pads then they can consume all the resources of the sim and nothing will be done about it. Or, someone could move next door to you and put up walls around you and there is nothing that will be done about it. Basically, on the mainland, anyone can do anything and it's ok as long as it's not a violation of ToS.

Well, in the past few months mainland has shot up to 14 L/sq.m or more. Because of that, I decided to move to a private island for the first time. WOW! I'm glad I did! There I had more control of the land (was able to raise or lower it more than 4 meters) and I found out that the covenants provided rules and safeguards that the residents must abide by to live there. On most private islands landlords will not tollerate anything that bothers other residents. The best part about looking for private island land to rent or buy is that YOU GET TO CHOOSE THE LAND RULES THAT SUIT YOU!! What I mean by that is that you can go around and read the covenants, if you don't like what one of them says then you can keep looking till you read a covenant that think is really fair and fits what you are looking for. Some covenants are for residential only, some are for commercial only...some are a mixture. Also, you can decide how you want to pay....by lindens, or paypal... See what I mean? You get to choose

Well, after realizing how much better I liked private islands and a lot of thought I decided to buy a private island myself. I decided to offer my land for rent and not to "Sell". Why did I choose this to rent it out and not sell you ask? Well, here's why...


Basically, no one "OWNS" land in SL.

Huh? No one owns land?? Nope, no one really owns land in SL. Why? because everyone has to pay tier fees! So, do you really own the land anywhere in SL? The answer is NO! Everone pays tier fees and lease the land from LL. Really all you are doing when you "buy" land is pay a lot up front that you really don't have to. Now, the land barons are not going to like me saying this because they need to sell you land to make a profit and to free up some of their tier space so they can invest in more land to sell at a profit. They don't like me saying that.......but..... they know it's true. Some of the private island owners are not liking me saying this because thats how they get some up front capitol to put back in thier own tier fees or to help pay for the investment of the island....but....they also know this is true. So, what I'm saying is don't get caught up on the words "owning land". You don't own it....you pay tier so you really lease.

Now, in conclusion this would be my advice to newbies......

1. Look around! Don't get the first thing you see that catches your eye. If you are looking for waterfront, snow or greenland, you will find it all over SL. Keep looking till you find something you like at a good deal.

2. Don't be affraid of covenants, they are not a bad thing. However, there are good covenants and bad ones. READ THEM CAREFULLY! Know what you are expected to do and how you are expected to pay. Look and see what the rules are if a club moves next door to you. Or, if you are wanting to start a business make sure that the land you are getting allows commercial activity.

3. Check and see who owns the island. Are they a reputable person? Have they been in SL long enough that they have made a presence and therefore will probably be around for a long time to come? Look and see who else lives on the island and ask them what they think of the landlord.

4. You DON'T have to BUY the land, don't be affraid of renting...it will probably be cheaper. Only buy land if you purposly want to sell it for a profit.

5. Stay away from mainland unless you want it for a commercial presence. Mainland is laggy and no one will keep somone from moving next door to you and ruining your view or soaking up all the resources of the sim. Right now, with mainland being 14 L/sq.m or more it is the most expensive land and the absolute WORST value.

Hopes this helps some folks but this is what i've found to be true.

This is really an issue of semantics--what do we mean by "own." Nobody has absolute ownership of land in SL--but then it is rare to have absolute ownership of land in RL, by the same definition.

In RL, I might acquire free-and-clear title to a nice pristine parcel of land along the coast somewhere, for example. There's a good chance I will be assessed a property tax by one or more governments. As more and more other people start to set up house or start businesses around me, at some point it is common for the area to be "incorporated" over the objections of many of the landowners. Suddenly I may find myself dealing with zoning issues on top of my property taxes. One day I may find that I must provide a right-of-way through my property to the ocean, as the courts have ruled that everyone has the right to access "my" beach. As things develop, the city Fathers may decide that the town would be better served with a Walmart or a freeway where my house now stands, and exercise imminent domain to seize "my" land in exchange for whatever compensation they deem fair. So, living less happily now on a lot a mile away, I am overjoyed when gold or oil is discovered on my land...until I am informed that it turns out I don't own the mineral rights to my plot. As the years go by, not only do I have to (on penalty of law) pay property tax on my land, but I discover more and more limitations. I can't light firecrackers, because my house might catch on fire, and the fire might spread to my neighbors. I can't bury my wife under the oak tree in the back yard with our initials carved in it. I can't park my broken-down car on the front lawn. Etc., etc., etc.

Does all this mean I'm a renter? Does someone else in fact own my land? The answer depends on what we mean by those words. In practice, it is common for people that hold title to their land to say they "own" it, even if they must pay property taxes to hang on to it, and even if there are deed restrictions on how they may use it. If we imagine LL as a Federal government, and private Estate owners as municipal governments, we could even entertain arguments for actual ownership of land on private sims. Sure, we'd lose our land if something happens to the "real" owners, but we might lose our RL land also if some other government vanquished ours and took over.

Your main point stands, Alan--let the buyer have his eyes open and know what he is getting into, and he can be happy with what he gets.

Whether i pay $195 or $295 a month is not the question here, i pay what i am required to pay for my land tier, the issue still remains that rentals have no place in Land for Sale listings.

You're twisting definitions: owning land in SL means that LL recognizes you as the owner. As long as you abide by the TOS and keep up your tier, nothing is going to happen to it and you're free to do with it as you please.

All of that is within your control, if you don't pay tier or break the TOS you're directly responsible for what happens. Not so on a private island where you have no control and are entirely dependant on someone else with absolutely no recourse because to LL they own the land regardless of any agreement they might have worked out with you.

Transfer the private island rental situation to the mainland and it becomes obvious why it's silly. Regardless of lag or aesthetic issues, would you rent on the mainland if you were asked to pay for the land without actually having it in your name? I really doubt it and it's likely you'd be quite suspicious even though with the new group options you could have the exact same access you'd have on a private sim, the only abilities you wouldn't have is sell or abandon the land.

[Edited to add that those who call the land payment a rental deposit which is returned when they vacate or if the sim should get sold are making a fair compromise between a return on their investment and accurately representating that it doesn't convey ownership]

Thanks to the new open source goodness, they won't have any place in my For Sale listings anymore

Actually, if you look in the classifieds you will find mainland owners renting for 4000 L/week. (thats more than I rent for my PI lots for )



Here's how I do my lots on my PI:
Someone takes posession of the land by paying a $2000 deposit to "buy it". I made it clear in my covenant that this was rental and not a "buy" BUT thats what LL callls it. The deposit is then completely refunded when they pay thier first rental box payment. Once they "buy" the land for the $2000 deposit it's IN THEIR NAME. If you look in about land it says THIER NAME. It will stay in their name unless they don't pay their rental (tier) in which case the land will be reclaimed. It's the same thing that happens on mainland. If you don't pay your tier (rental) Gov. Linden WILL reclaim your land. So,Whats the difference .....rental/tier/rental/teir ??

Lastly, LL are the ones who made the PI's function like they do. It says clearly that my land is NOT for resale. But yet, when I click the "sale land" button it shows up in the same listings. So, if you have that much of an issue then you need to get LL (or someone who can code the open source viewer) to fix it where I have two buttons....one that says "rent land" or one that says "sale land".